Message #21421

[Liam]

I think part of the reason that Liam is getting flack is because, while his subsequent posts were reasonable, his initial response was not.  Hop turns are not the best choice for skiing steeps or crud--though occasionally you do need to retract aggressively enough to pop your skis free so you can change edges when the mank is extra gooey.  Moreover, the OP was asking about steep refrozen crud--and icy conditions are the last place where a hop turn would be helpful.  When it gets slick, you need progressive edge engagement throughout the entire turn, not the late slamming of edges that results from a full hop turn.

Ok this is my original response in this thread about Skiing steep crud:  Others here might not tell you this but: For real steep crud, you'll want a well-balanced hop-turn.  Now whether that is the 'pedal-hop' favored by Deslaurier or a more old school 'Spiess Hop' or just a crud busting hopping edge change is up to you.  But real steeps with deeper tricky snow require having a 'no-room' edge/ direction change move in your back pocket....maybe even master a high angle kick turn, that move has saved my bacon in back country/ steep off piste situations.

I'm pretty sure I didn't say this is the basis for all turns, or 'the way to ski.'  I left it open to try old school or decidedly new hopping methods--an any of these will fit the techniques of a specific school.



PMTS is not religion--you won't go to hell for hopping a turn or three.  But what practitioners of PMTS learn is that when you are able to carve the high C portion of the turn, you get a level of precision and control that is incomprehensible to those who don't ski that way.

Uh, never argued against the value of skiing the top of the turn (Hi-C to you guys).  Heck the deslaurier model still preserves this as the beginning of all 'pedal' maneuvers

 

Yes, full hop turns may sometimes be necessary, That is exactly my point, the following exposition doesn't change the fact we've reached the  place...


but nobody who skis the high C would ever treat them as anything other than an emergency maneuver, or an option of last resort.  The fact is, when you can carve high C turns, having to abandon the high C is scary. Why do you have to abandon the Hi C to make a hop turn??  The Pedal Hop relies og a strong Hi-C/ little toe edge engagement-it's the MIDDLE C you're abandonning..and heck, sometimes it's enough to just hop to edge change...a Harb Approved exercise 

You understand exactly what you are giving up and when you have to resort to something like a hop turn and you hate doing it because it is so much less controlled Really, 'hate' and 'have to resort to'...sounds like religious guilt to me. 

In the case of hop turns, you also hate doing them because they require so much physical effort and they just don't feel good They aren't that taxing to execute, and how they feel is subjective..  Fighting gravity sucks--especially when you are used to treating it as your plaything Uh, when you jump off of something and land lower--how is that 'fighting gravity, it's more working with gravity..

 Hop turns are not, in the PMTS view, good skiing and even if you have to use them once in a while, that doesn't make them worth talking about good skiing? Seriously?  There is a thrill navigating everything you encounter on a big wild space, and that's what's good...we got got and ends and means dyslexia going on here.  You get better by practicing the ideal, not the one-offs. I said as much-however, I do think a little time getting the feel of the one offs pays dividends...Perhaps that is why you 'hate' doing them so much and feel you are fighting gravity and lack control...you don't know how to pull them off in crux situations and maximize balance, agility, and stability

I don't practice hop turns because I find that if I need to do one, I can. See above comment

They are just an extreme application of movements I already have.Then why are they bad, alien feelings and 'hateful???  Interestingly, after becoming a PMTS skier, I found that my execution of hop turns actually changed to match my new movements.Imagine that. 

All of which tends to support the argument that if you have the skills to be where hop turns might actually be warranted, you will instinctively know how to do them should you need toAgain, from how unpleasant they sound to you I'm not sure that is entirely true-it should feel no more alien Than standing in your driveway and hopping in sneakers.  Really, I don't consider hop turns to even be a turn, and as such, the only time I consider using them is when I'm somewhere that is so steep and narrow that there is simply not enough room for the skis to work.
Again, this is my point, no matter what you consider them, even a vaunted PMTS camper like Geofda hops from time to time...and those times are times when f-ing up is at a premium...why not do them better
That said, the crux of the argument really boils down to what kind of skier you want to be.  The DesLauriers teach skiers to ski the whole mountain while PMTS teaches expert skiing.  There is a difference.  Most all mountain skiers are not experts.  If you want to be an expert skier, perfect your ability to release, transfer, and engage until you can do it in any conditions and on (almost) any terrain.  Practice the ideal and strive for it at all times in your skiing.  If you aren't an all mountain skier you aren't an expert whether you make your turns by flexing and tipping or you make your turns while balancing on your hands--HH's way is a good path to all mountain skiing, of course[/color]