The Key To Better Off Piste Skiig

[jbotti]

BW, did I miss something. I don't recall being at A-Basin last week or actually any time this season. No we have not met! With regard to your question, yes, I have owned several rockered skis and tried several others. My frst pair I bought in 2006 and it was a DPS Lotus 138 (a true reverse/Reverse ski). My second pair was a PM Gear Lhasa Pow that I bought and owned the first season that they made them. I have skied the Rossi S 7's (perhaps my least favorite ski of all time, softer than a lawn chair) and the Armada ARG, the Armada JJ, a bunch of others and the rockerd skis in Stockli's 2012 lineup.

I stand by my comments. If you pivot yours skis (something that I strive not to do when I ski) then rockerd skis will feel great and you will think of them as an improvement. I choose not to pivot my skis as a defacto move and because I use sidecut and edge angles to turn the skis, I prefer non rockered skis.

I think I understand how rockered skis work pretty well. Simply, I have worked to hard to get the technique I have to ride on skis that essentailly force one to pivot. Rockered tips I can live with especailly if it is modest (I own a pair of K2 Hardsides and they are OK). Tail rocker makes it almost impossible to put any lateral presure on the skis without the tails washing out. Some people love this sensation and it makes it very easy to turn skis in any terrain and from any fore aft position (and many are way aft on rockered skis). It is also why rockered skis have been a gamechanger for intermediates in powder and chop because they can pivot a rockered ski from the back seat and with a hard tail that just won't happen (the tail sinks deeper the more weight you put on it).

After much mileage on many different rockered skis, I have sold them all and I prefer a hard tail, trad camber and sidecut and a non rockerd tip. My powder ski of choice is the Icelantic Shaman which I ski in the 184 length and in fresh snow I really like this ski a lot.

I will look for you next time I am at A-Basin. Maybe you will be riding way back on some wide rockered boards! Yeah baby!!

[LivingProof]

I did meet him though.

He skis in a blue and orange helmet with Uvex goggle, and was at A basin last weekend. I even have pictures of him skiing......

thanks I dont mean to offend but only to inform.
[/quote]

BW,

I believe the person who skis in a Blue/Orange helmet is JDM (real name James) who posts both on Epic and the PMTS forum. I skied with him at the recent Epic Gathering and would concur that he would have difficulty "keeping up" in Abasin's more difficult terrain. But as he and I ski somewhere around the same level, so    I also have the same issues. Others who use PMTS and may have been at Abasin that day are HighAngles, who posts here and on Epic under another name, and, also Geoffda who posts on Epic.

JDM and I had conversations about our inability to use traditional PMTS movements in difficult terrain, and, reverting to rotary movements to get the job done. For sure, there is a gap between my vision of how I would like to ski and what I see on my video. In any case, selective comparisons of skiing technique is difficult.

To speak to your point about an "aft transition leading to being very much in the front of your boot before the fall line" as an effective Off Piste movement, while I'm uncertain of your specific definition of an "aft transition", in PMTS, flexing to release the edges does result in an aft position and then recentering and High C carving does require getting very much into the front of the boot. Are we actually talking a common movement? 

You have shared many videos of skiing with your friends. Some "keep up" far better than others, some display technique that is not very flattering, some just plain rip and I envy them.  My thinking is that most skiers would like to be recognized for what they ski rather than how well they ski it. This speaks to John Botti?s point of rockered skis make skiing difficult terrain easier. Why bother with technique when you can just go do it?

To each, his or her own, but technique is a dying value in modern skiing.

[Gary]

Quite contrair my good friend Mike...technique has not vanished it's just evolving...just take a look at people on this site who have bared their souls. I truly believe much may be gleamed from the comments and self expressions of those here.

The key is to find what makes you feel solid on your skis, what allows you to ski confidently terrain you desire to ski and to look as pretty as you can doing it. Whether it's your skis or your technique or a combination thereof....as far as being pretty.....wearing a cool ski outfit works. 

I would dare wage a guess you my friend Mike are suffering the "Ski Withdrawal Blues"! 

Given the rain we've been having, those darn cloudy days and the 24" of snow the Sierra's got today....if I could I'd be on a plane to the mountains or Florida to golf.

Finally, I believe as I read what you wrote, you ARE looking for ways to improve your skiing and that in itself is KEY! Ski with good skiers that you want to emulate...ask them how they do what they do thus increasing the ski skill tools you have iin your bag. Keep smilin' brother cause it ALWAYS get's better!  G

[bushwacka]

BW, did I miss something. I don't recall being at A-Basin last week or actually any time this season. No we have not met! With regard to your question, yes, I have owned several rockered skis and tried several others. My frst pair I bought in 2006 and it was a DPS Lotus 138 (a true reverse/Reverse ski). My second pair was a PM Gear Lhasa Pow that I bought and owned the first season that they made them. I have skied the Rossi S 7's (perhaps my least favorite ski of all time, softer than a lawn chair) and the Armada ARG, the Armada JJ, a bunch of others and the rockerd skis in Stockli's 2012 lineup.

I stand by my comments. If you pivot yours skis (something that I strive not to do when I ski) then rockerd skis will feel great and you will think of them as an improvement. I choose not to pivot my skis as a defacto move and because I use sidecut and edge angles to turn the skis, I prefer non rockered skis.

I think I understand how rockered skis work pretty well. Simply, I have worked to hard to get the technique I have to ride on skis that essentailly force one to pivot. Rockered tips I can live with especailly if it is modest (I own a pair of K2 Hardsides and they are OK). Tail rocker makes it almost impossible to put any lateral presure on the skis without the tails washing out. Some people love this sensation and it makes it very easy to turn skis in any terrain and from any fore aft position (and many are way aft on rockered skis). It is also why rockered skis have been a gamechanger for intermediates in powder and chop because they can pivot a rockered ski from the back seat and with a hard tail that just won't happen (the tail sinks deeper the more weight you put on it).

After much mileage on many different rockered skis, I have sold them all and I prefer a hard tail, trad camber and sidecut and a non rockerd tip. My powder ski of choice is the Icelantic Shaman which I ski in the 184 length and in fresh snow I really like this ski a lot.

I will look for you next time I am at A-Basin. Maybe you will be riding way back on some wide rockered boards! Yeah baby!!

I never strive to pivot my skis but being able to pivot and keep momentum is key to smooth off trail skiing, especially in east coast trees. I would also disagree with the statement that any rockered ski cant take lateral pressure. There were and still are alot of bad rockered ski now. today there are torsional stiff models that are out performing their cambered cousin even on hardpack.

this is ski with significant amount of rocker tip and tail on refrozen spring snow that was harder than any hardpack we ever had at stowe this year.

88mm tip and tail rocker camber underfoot


98mm flat underfoot, tip and tail rocker hard groomer


I would say that as long your are good at balancing againt and bending a ski that the new rockered ski will ski hardpack well enough, they arent made for that anyways.

IMO rocker is a game changer for anyone serious about off trail skiing not just intermediates, not only do they let the skis slide sideways when you want them to you dont have to time decambing movements any more . You will not see a single flim star, or Big Mountain Competitor skiing a fully cambered ski.  They would have there choice of anything but yet the best in the world the guys who get paid to do what they do choose and have helped develop rockered ski. For me personally there are conditions where rockered skis are easier, and there are conditions and slopes where non rockered skis are flat out impossible and again for me the new rockered skis are just plain more fun. Id be the first to tell you that you cant 'buy" a turn but you can make your turn have better.

A-basin is simply not challenging and tight enough to make a big difference in ski performance. The biggest things rockered skis can do is open up tighter lines in REALLY tight trees. A basin have nothing I would consider tight trees. My guess is at stowe you would hate the shaman, not because of its width but because the sidecut dictates turn shape to much and the wide tip and tail with the camber tend to make a very catchy ski.  You can strive to not pivot in our woods at stowe but that will pretty much leave either stopping alot or wrecking into trees. you would never come to stowe because you have no idea how truly good it is, but if you did I doubt the shaman would stay on your feet long.

basically with out the new tech skiing these lines with this much speed would not be possible by anyone.  That is reason enough for me. Also with outhttp://vimeo.com/23796982 having a strong controlled pivot that keep you going most people would out run their skills before they avoided the trees.

[Gary]

Dude....I see where the name bushwacka came from....great skiing through that bramble....way to tight for my liking....but nicely done...you're very quick in there...sweet skills to have. Love the way your skis are working together and great work with the poles too.

I know the pitch is hard to appreciate but from the rate of turn of your skis....you're moving pretty good. 

Great thoughts on skiing the rockered skis...same message I've been saying using my rockered Rossi S3's at 98 underfoot.
In my opinion, they're as stable as many GS skis....respond extremely well to lateral pressure, are stable, easy to get on edge angle and very versatile. They don't like finsihing any turn on the tail cause their ain't none their to support ya....but skiing them centered...tip and turn....they are amazing and fun. Although you won't find me in tight trees like that, I love the ability of the S3's to slither down tight lines of my choice be it on a steep crud run or along the edges of a blue run where there is broken snow, bumps and off camber stuff to play in....a great place the sideslip, pivot, brushcarves come into play. Having said this about the Rossi S3's....I had a pair of Armada JJ's that were the pits for me...they worked better flat with light tipping of flat and swiveling in the trees then me trying to get them up on high edge....like anything else....gotta find what works.

B, even if many don't enter the terrain you have mastered, the benefits of the new gear to make taming the crud and pow with judicious application of float, drift, pivot, turns...is oh such a beautiful thing.

Man B...freakn' awesome skiing in the woods!

G

[bushwacka]

JDM and I had conversations about our inability to use traditional PMTS movements in difficult terrain, and, reverting to rotary movements to get the job done. For sure, there is a gap between my vision of how I would like to ski and what I see on my video. In any case, selective comparisons of skiing technique is difficult.

You need rotary to be able ski the terrain I like to ski, with out  it CANT be done, you need controled precise rotary

To speak to your point about an "aft transition leading to being very much in the front of your boot before the fall line" as an effective Off Piste movement, while I'm uncertain of your specific definition of an "aft transition", in PMTS, flexing to release the edges does result in an aft position and then recentering and High C carving does require getting very much into the front of the boot. Are we actually talking a common movement? 

we are talking about the same thing

You have shared many videos of skiing with your friends. Some "keep up" far better than others, some display technique that is not very flattering, some just plain rip and I envy them.  My thinking is that most skiers would like to be recognized for what they ski rather than how well they ski it. This speaks to John Botti?s point of rockered skis make skiing difficult terrain easier. Why bother with technique when you can just go do it?

To each, his or her own, but technique is a dying value in modern skiing.

technique isnt dying its just adapting to what new stuff can let you do. Just because pivoting didnt work on short carvers doesnt mean it doesnt work on the skis I am skiing on or that is a 'bad" thing to have. Like I have said to never practice tight pivot style turns is to have a part of your skiing missing.  Also I would challenge what is 'good technique" if your "good technique" doesnt let you ski everywhere IMO there is nothing good about it. Where as my 'crappy" pivot technique lets me ski more places. Do you see how the arguement against pivoting is a pretty lame one.

Also just because you can pivot rockered ski easier I would also argue that in soft snow you can carve them better as well. More option and more turns are always a good thing when testing the limits of skiing.

Dude....I see where the name bushwacka came from....great skiing through that bramble....way to tight for my liking....but nicely done...you're very quick in there...sweet skills to have. Love the way your skis are working together and great work with the poles too.

I know the pitch is hard to appreciate but from the rate of turn of your skis....you're moving pretty good. 

Great thoughts on skiing the rockered skis...same message I've been saying using my rockered Rossi S3's at 98 underfoot.
In my opinion, they're as stable as many GS skis....respond extremely well to lateral pressure, are stable, easy to get on edge angle and very versatile. They don't like finsihing any turn on the tail cause their ain't none their to support ya....but skiing them centered...tip and turn....they are amazing and fun. Although you won't find me in tight trees like that, I love the ability of the S3's to slither down tight lines of my choice be it on a steep crud run or along the edges of a blue run where there is broken snow, bumps and off camber stuff to play in....a great place the sideslip, pivot, brushcarves come into play. Having said this about the Rossi S3's....I had a pair of Armada JJ's that were the pits for me...they worked better flat with light tipping of flat and swiveling in the trees then me trying to get them up on high edge....like anything else....gotta find what works.

B, even if many don't enter the terrain you have mastered, the benefits of the new gear to make taming the crud and pow with judicious application of float, drift, pivot, turns...is oh such a beautiful thing.

Man B...freakn' awesome skiing in the woods!

G

thanks dude. the nice thing about these video is unlike posting on a internet forum they cant be easily replicated. You have to be able to ski it to video it.  Its also a good arguement for rotary. Also the I have found the tighter the trees the more untracked snow I can ski.

Your JJs are not the best outside of snow that wont you hit bottom on. You should try the Sickle from Rossi,  Wrenagade from On3p, or Cochise from BLizzard if you want something bigger that still skis conventionally for the most part.  I could own the JJ but it would be a untracked or slightly tracked snow only ski.

[jbotti]

BW, I have never skied the glades at Stowe. I will tell you that we have many glades with similar spacing at my home hill in Montana, and there are a variety of non rockered skis that I use in them with no issues at all including the shamans.

To each his own. Glad that you have skis that you love and new technology that you feel really helps you.

[Gary]

I too found the JJ's great for deeper snow and for skiing flat in the trees I dare enter...but were not versatile enough for me. Sold them pretty quick with no regrets. No doubt the snow holds better in the trees..ya just gotta have the skills, reaction time and confidence to get in there. I'd be hunting and pecking every 2 turns.

I actually would like to try something a little wider but as versatile as my S3's...I've heard talk of DPS....the "yellow" ski as being "the one"....but will keep an eye out to try the Sickle and the Cochise which will be probably the easiest ones to find.

Thanks, g

[jim-ratliff]

Soooo.   It's great to have Bushwacker contributing reviews (I really liked the xx out of 10 in different aspects rating approach) and participating.  But back to "sort of" the original topic (and maybe it's rockered skis but probably not).

For you, what is the "single" (or most important) key to better off-piste skiing???

Gary, you want to go first?

[Gary]

Hey Jim... whether skiing crud, pow, or broken snow for me, it's  being able to feel and work from the center, flat part of the ski cause without this tool, over edgeing and over pressuring can spell disaster. Hence, learning to use the float, drift and/or pivot slips are essential especially in these conditions.

Geez and ya made me stop with "single".......I respect your request and zip it up...

Next please,,,

[Gary]

Not fair Max...you get one thing to pick....what one ski skill in your ski tool bag is essential for skiing off piste?

Let's have it...fess up.....   g

[bushwacka]

What is The Key To Better Off Piste Skiing?

Mastering the Fundamentals

For bumps, trees, and chutes that means a rock solid short turn.

For deeper wet heavy snow I like more speed so I can blast through the gunk.

what happens when you ski deep heavy gunk in tight confines?

[Gary]

So Max...now it's a bag of tricks eh....it's so nice to know that all your fundamentals work so well for you blasting here and blasting there.

The concept behind the discussion was to try to express to those let's say...less experienced as you are....but let's say...advanced intermediate and above, and express what skill you find is the most important to have skiing off piste.

But hey...a lot of magicians don't like sharring their tricks...and that's cool.

For the betterment of those who post or read here, it's fun to compare thoughts and encourage new ideas.

G