Flip Core

[jbotti]

I was up at The Start Haus in Truckee yetserday getting a liner foamed. I saw Phil and we chatted for a while. He showed me all the new skis and I got to look at the New Blizzard skis with Flip Core Tech (bushwacker, bonafide, cochise and bodacious as well as the black Pearl for women). I was expecting much more Rocker. The tips are more early rise than rocker. It's more than I want but it's not significant. The tails have very little and if you don't put the skis up against ecah other you can hardly tell that there is small rocker. Without doing that the tails look flat. The skis in the smaller widths have camber and the wide ones I believe are flat. These skis are much better than I expected. I doubt I would buy one (for the previous stated reasons of prefering no tail rocker) but these will ski much better than some of the other heavily rockered skis I have seen. If this is the future of using Rocker Technology it is a much better direction.

BTW, I continue to get great results with any boot or ski work I get done at the Start Haus and/or with Jim Schaffner. Great place!!

[bushwacka]

early rise -
rocker -

both can not be defined by anyone. There is no cut off point in definition for either. Niether can be defined so lets stop using different terms.

Your not going to get them but you havent tried them?

The rise on these skis is low and long.

The Bushwacker has the most camber and also has most tip rocker. Finesse skier will love it.

The Bonafide has alittle camber with a little rocker, alot of people will like it.

The Cochise is flat with a little rocker, big mountain charger great hard pack grip

The Bodadacious is full long, low rise rocker. Comp skis hard to ski for me unless the visabilty is good.

There is so much more to how a ski is going to perform than just rocker. Everything (flex, camber, rocker, material, lenght, width, core preload) is going to affect how the skis ski. With out trying them you will never know, and one day or one run on a ski is not enough.

The reason why I bolded  Core Preload is that exactly what Flip core is. The core has cambered but it is flipped and then the underfoot camber is pressed in. The skis has tons of energy because basically it has been preload into camber and wants to return to its decambered state.

camber is a crutch used for people who have trouble skiing hardpack. IF you have superb for and aft balance skills a torsionally  stiff ski with full rocker will be no issue on hardpack.

[bushwacka]

Max I was joking with you guys about being a crutch. Because it was term that get though around alot about powder skis, and still does. although I have seen WC skiers skiing full rockered SL skis for the Sugar SL at Stowe, because it helps with the ruts.

The real point to saying crutch was saying just because something better doesnt mean its a crutch.

[jim-ratliff]

Traditional camber is a design that allows a large amount of edge contact when the ski is tipped just a small amount. WC SL racers have excellent fore/aft balance skills and their SL skis have lots of camber.

Max: Camber or side-cut. What you said sounds more like a description of side-cut.  I thought more camber (in conjunction with a stiffer flex) puts more pressure on the tips and tails of the ski because the camber is transferring more weight to the tip and tail?

[LivingProof]

I don't think the Sugar SL is a WC race.

I was in Stowe the weekend of the Sugar Slalom and it's a major season ending event in the Vt. racing circuit. Was amazed at how many people were there for it and the level of skiing was very high. I would not be surprised if some former WC or future WC skiers participated. Was also there for last year's NCAA's and the skiing level was the best I've ever seen in a live GS.

I've never been interested in bending, sniffing, measuring, comparing, speculating, hypothesizing,  etc. on new ski designs. Some may have noticed my anti-marketing skepticism. Like Harry Truman, SHOW ME, or, let me actually go out and ski on them. There's a whole thread on Epic about how a few products each year get people going ga-ga. I participated in ga-ga-ism when I bought the MX88's - but, only after I skied them. Phil actually did a pretty funny post of accumulating all my pre-use anti-hype and then contrasting that with my loving reviews after I skied them. I laugh when long term reviewers write ga-ga reviews each year, then sellout , and start the ga-ga process all over. Fool me once ok , do it year in and year out, I don't think so. I'd love to see before and after video comparing their skiing on both skies.

 Back to "flip core". Trust me, the first time I can get on a new Blizzi flip core, I'll be there. In the mean time, I'll be working on the movements needed to refine my skiing so that I can become a more rounded reviewer.

One thing I fully appreciate is those who post here have a very strong opinion of what is important in their own personal skiing. And that's what it's all about. Your skills, your technique, your mountain, your turnshape, your trees, your idea of fun.

[jbotti]

Sounds like it's a ways from a WC race!!

[Liam]

If any of guys ever talk to Peter Keelty (in a gear consult or just being friendly) ask him about his inspection of Ted Ligety's actual race skis last season.   I won't say anything, but I think many here would be surprised to hear what Keelty was shown about the unique design of these specific skis.

And yes, it is apropos to discussions of flip core.


Liam

[jbotti]

I saw Ligety's skis last year when I was in Vail and Mike Morin (ex Head Mens Technical Coach) brought us into the ski prep room where evryones skis resideed. There is nothing close to rocker on any of them. I keep hearing this stuff and it's a total fabrictaion. The idea that WC racers would attempt to ski injected ice on a partially rockered skis is beyond absurd!

[Liam]

Yeah, I'd think so, too...so did Peter, that is, until he looked at Ligety's ski...I believe the phrase very subtle but indeniable early rise. 

I have no idea what to make of that, I'm neither ski designer nor wc racer. 

If you're not too worried about slowing down what's so hard about skiing ice?

[jim-ratliff]

If any of guys ever talk to Peter Keelty (in a gear consult or just being friendly) ask him about his inspection of Ted Ligety's actual race skis last season.   I won't say anything, but I think many here would be surprised to hear what Keelty was shown about the unique design of these specific skis.

And yes, it is apropos to discussions of flip core.


Liam

Confirmed.

[jbotti]

I feel confident that Peter is imagining things! I will shoot Mike Morin an email and have him take a look at Ligety's skis. Mike is out in Vail right now. Again I feel very confident that this is marketing fabrication by those that want the recreational ski world to believe that early rise is taking everything by storm 9including the WC). If I am wrong I will come back and let everyone know.

On a related topic, I bought a pair of Dynastar Sultan 85 skis the first year they were made. This is a traditionally cambered ski with no rocker, or at least that is what we thought. The next year the ski was exactly the same but Dynastar claimed "early rise" in the tips. I put both years skis up against each other and the tip profile was unchanged from the two years, yet with the year two version Dynastar claimed an early rise tip. Peter then noted on his website that there was substantial increased interest to demo this ski!!

Is everyone getting the picture?

If you wantt to say that the Sultan 85 (year 1 and 2 as it may have been changed this year) is an early rise ski, I guess you can, but it isn't!!! If you want to say that a slalom ski has a small amount of early rise you can also, but it doesn't!!

Let's go back and read marketing 101 and the light bulb should go off for everyone!!

[jim-ratliff]

I saw Ligety's skis last year when I was in Vail and Mike Morin (ex Head Mens Technical Coach) brought us into the ski prep room where evryones skis resideed. There is nothing close to rocker on any of them. I keep hearing this stuff and it's a total fabrictaion. The idea that WC racers would attempt to ski injected ice on a partially rockered skis is beyond absurd!

True last year. Perhaps not true on all of his skis this year.

[jbotti]

Again, I feel confident I am right this year as well, but I can find out quickly and I will come back.

[Liam]

Confirmed.

yep.  And Peter is no friend of rockered designs either.