NorthEast PMTS Meet Up

[LivingProof]

Well I got to tell you that I am terrain snob more specifically a snow/safety snob.

I am frighten by skiing groomers with lots of people around. They are REALLY dangerous with alot unnecessary risk on sometime a very unforgiving surface at speeds that we shouldnt not be able to reach in any other circumstance.

This weekend at stowe there was 17 people sledded off the hill, every single one of them was skiing on a groomed run.

The peecieved risk on groomers is much lower while the perceived risk of where I am skiing is much higher to most people but the actual fact and statistics could not be further from people perception.

Yet another senseless groomer death at Sugarbush I do not want that to be me or anyone skiing with me.

Josh,

It can be argued that you are simply exchanging out-of-control groomer skiers with trees. Risk exists in both cases, and, I'd argue that the everyday skier goes at far greater risk entering the woods. Your skills give you, and only you, the ability to do what you do.

"another senseless groomer death" - come on man! In the entire universe of "senseless death" where does skiing stack up? Nowhere near guns, motorcycles and drugs to name a few, and somewhere in there would be mountain biking.

[jim-ratliff]

"another senseless groomer death" - come on man! In the entire universe of "senseless death" where does skiing stack up? Nowhere near guns, motorcycles and drugs to name a few, and somewhere in there would be mountain biking.

Sad?? Agreed!  Senseless?? The guy was doing something of his choosing! (maybe at a speed and level of control of his choosing).  Certainly more than we can say for all the guys that have died in Iraq and Afghanistan.  Sad for their families??  Absolutely!  Senseless deaths??  May well be, only history can say!

[dan.boisvert]

As for that day at Magic...challenging terrain laps were all that was available, I would have been happy to mix in some groomer recovery runs if they had been available!  Magic with snow is pretty special (If I recall, on a powder Sunday the only other person we saw in the lift line all day was you!  ).

That day at Magic was GOLD (and a couple others that season were, too).  I had a blast with you guys.

Glen has come to the meetups since I told him about them, so if you can squeeze out a weekend one of these years, it'd be a good opportunity to meet him and get an idea of what in-person PMTS instruction is like.  The meetup is casual and not like a full-on workshop or anything, but I think it'd be enough to give you an idea.


Josh, the trails at the 'bush this weekend didn't seem too crowded to me; it was mostly the liftlines that were longer than I'm used to at times.  There were a few unguided missiles about, but not too many.  I'm a bit spoiled on this count by doing most of my skiing at Waterville Valley, where there's no speed limit and a ton of racers.  The folks passing me are usually on GS skis and know very well how to use them, so it's up to me to avoid the out-of-control people as I pass them, which works fine.  On the rare days when the out-of-control straightliners show up, I move to trails they can't straightline or head in.  I'm not looking to get hurt, either.

I think if I tried to ski the stuff you enjoy, I'd probably wreck your toboggan statistics, so I'll stay away.    I enjoy some more open glades, but skiing through bushes and stuff isn't really my thing.  I'd try to follow you down whatever if we were skiing together, but I'm typically more interested in bigger turns and higher speeds.  Maybe I was born on the wrong coast.

[HeluvaSkier]

It can be argued that you are simply exchanging out-of-control groomer skiers with trees.

Yeah, but trees don't fly at you at 30+ mph with no intention of stopping. In my experience, they are fairly stationary. 

[Liam]

Yeah, but trees don't fly at you at 30+ mph with no intention of stopping. In my experience, they are fairly stationary. 

That is 100% the point!

I actually agree with Josh about crowded groomers and safety (hence why I rarely do the VT Saturday thing)...I AM a low-skier density snob!

It is not that catastrophic injuries don't occur off-piste (of course they do!), it is that If someone hits a tree, or eats it on a mogul, it is 100% their fault and is the result of choices they made.  And by that I don't mean that I have no sympathy for the injured or that I am above eating wood while skiing trees myself, BUT, off-piste injuries are the results of personal choices and conscious actions--If I hit a tree, I got no one to blame but myself and my skiing (or lack there of) and ignoring of the potential risks (or just deciding to accept the potential risks) or my failure to ski under control and with due regard. 

On a crowded groomer, most injuries are the result of skier to skier collisions, and typically in those injuries, there is one very responsible party (who was skiing out of control or without due regard for others) and one who was an innocent by-skier.  And, from my own 7 years on a ski patrol, I will say that the vast majority of injuries I have seen are on groomers (or people who lost control on a groomer and ended up off-piste!). 

To LP's comments on mountain biking: I am, to be frank, a very good mountain biker. And, I only ride in the woods not on the road- I quit road riding for the same reason as I avoid skiing groomers on a Saturday in VT--the uncontrollable and accountable recklessness of others is too great a risk.  Yep, I've spit gravel and kissed boulders mountain riding...and each and every time it was the result of something I did, or chose to do and no one else was to blame.  But I know too many folks who have had catastrophic collisions (and harassment) with reckless vehicles.  Somewhere out there every mountain biker has a date with a broken wrist and a separated shoulder, but you are not going to cash it in mountain biking and if you do get hurt, it's your fault and the result of choices you made and actions you took...I can't say that with road riding.   I feel the same way with crowded groomers.

Dan,  my home mountain (Berkshire East) is similar to Waterville:  Racers dominate the slopes, skier density is very low and skier ability is high (in fact, the only place I have skied where I see a higher average level of skier is Mad River Glen mid week).  And therefore, a Day on the groomers can be pretty good (even on a Saturday). I am used to skiing at mach speed on groomers, but would never ski that way north of Brattleboro on a weekend.  I definitely get a nervous feeling skiing with the crowds (when my kids were learning to ski I had a number of times people collided with my children at Mount Snow and Stratton).

As a parting comment, my wife learned to get comfortable skiing trees to get away from the uncomfortable and dangerous crowded groomers of Southern, VT.

[bushwacka]

Josh,

It can be argued that you are simply exchanging out-of-control groomer skiers with trees. Risk exists in both cases, and, I'd argue that the everyday skier goes at far greater risk entering the woods. Your skills give you, and only you, the ability to do what you do.

"another senseless groomer death" - come on man! In the entire universe of "senseless death" where does skiing stack up? Nowhere near guns, motorcycles and drugs to name a few, and somewhere in there would be mountain biking.

you could argue whatever you want but statics do not lie your chance of dieing skiing are greatest while skiing on blue groomers. I think alot of people worry so much about what could happen with regards to off piste skiing(aka perception) instead of what the statics say which is that skiing on a blue groomer at GS speeds is risking your life much more than even the fast most aggressive tree skiers.

If you do not have to skills that I have you just going to be skiing alot slower than I am. With that said everyone has to start somewhere and 10 years ago I did not ski ......at all.

Skiing on groomer is way more dangerous than MTBing, or Off piste skiing. The speeds reached on a groomer can kill people when they come in contact with a solid object or worse someone else.

The other reason I love tree skiing is so far in my many years of saying that PMTS is a uncomplete skiing teaching system not one person has been able to show me on my own tuff they can ski with out using any active rotary and still make the run. I also love it because the mental/tactical aspect of it is so specialized that I can only think of a half dozen people I have ever met who can ski woods at my speed or greater and be consistent with it run after run.  Not only do you have to have a mastery of all the skills including rotary but you have to either have to be able to react quicker than you can actually think. I would be bored senseless with out it.

[dan.boisvert]

The other reason I love tree skiing is so far in my many years of saying that PMTS is a uncomplete skiing teaching system not one person has been able to show me on my own tuff they can ski with out using any active rotary and still make the run. I also love it because the mental/tactical aspect of it is so specialized that I can only think of a half dozen people I have ever met who can ski woods at my speed or greater and be consistent with it run after run.  Not only do you have to have a mastery of all the skills including rotary but you have to either have to be able to react quicker than you can actually think. I would be bored senseless with out it.

Has anyone tried?

Not to sound rude or anything, but I'd imagine the folks who can ski the stuff you ski without active rotary wouldn't really care about the opinion of some random guy on the internet.  They're probably too busy skiing and coaching to be bothered with it.

I also think the "no active rotary" thing is a bit overblown and misunderstood, but that's a conversation for a different day.

[bushwacka]

If someone is willing to try, I am game. I have cameras.

Who ever it is is putting alot on the line for the whole PMTS community.

I ski with more than a few low point(30-100) FIS racers. Every single one of them would say they turn there ski while skiing woods.

BTW some random guy on the internet. ha. You clearly do not realize just how powerful the world wide web is I literally got a job for being me

[LivingProof]

Well, it seems the Sugarbush fatality facts are the person hit a tree, square on. It was captured on video, posted on the web, and then removed. No second party involvement, he appears to have made a mistake. While the video was on the 'net, I saw it, he just went into the woods for no apparent reason. From the local press story.

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/article/20120207/NEWS02/120207018/Skier-in-fatal-Sugarbush-accident-was-Bank-of-America-vice-president-in-Boston?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

For clarity, I agree that skiing on groomers during high density periods is an accident waiting to happen. My home mountain has the ability to put more people up the mountain via high speed lifts than the trails can safely accommodate coming down the mountain. If I ski on weekends, it there very early and leave by 11.

But, to return to Bushwacker's "senseless groomer death" statement, this year two major freestyle skiers have been killed, one in a freeskiing contest and one practicing half-pipe flips. The overwhelming sense of what I have read is grief at the passing, with a minimum of 'live by the sword, die by the sword" sentiment. I know Bush has expressed grief at some of his hero's passing. Why make judgements of persons dying on a groomer just because groomers bore you?

[dan.boisvert]

Who ever it is is putting alot on the line for the whole PMTS community.
[snip]
BTW some random guy on the internet. ha. You clearly do not realize just how powerful the world wide web is I literally got a job for being me

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think the PMTS community, if it can even be referred to as a single entity, loses much sleep over this.  We're a bunch of individuals like everybody else, and somebody else's e-challenge isn't going to change the value I get from the coaching I receive.

I think it's awesome that you got a gig just for being yourself, though.  I dig your stoke and that you're willing to share it with everybody.  It's also impressive to see how many days after a storm you're still skiing fresh snow.  There's just a ton of skiing outside of the internet and plenty of really, really good people who have no interest in posting on message boards or getting involved in any sort of e-politics.  I'd imagine most of them deal with enough politics in their jobs that they've no interest in dealing with that in their personal time, too.  Look at the top echelon of racers or freeskiers, for example.  What percentage of those dudes even have blogs or whatever, and how many just go ski?

Personally, I'm much more interested in skiing with anybody from anywhere and having beers after than getting into an argument over a hobby.

[Liam]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think the PMTS community, if it can even be referred to as a single entity, loses much sleep over this.  We're a bunch of individuals like everybody else, and somebody else's e-challenge isn't going to change the value I get from the coaching I receive.

I think it's awesome that you got a gig just for being yourself, though.  I dig your stoke and that you're willing to share it with everybody.  It's also impressive to see how many days after a storm you're still skiing fresh snow.  There's just a ton of skiing outside of the internet and plenty of really, really good people who have no interest in posting on message boards or getting involved in any sort of e-politics.  I'd imagine most of them deal with enough politics in their jobs that they've no interest in dealing with that in their personal time, too.  Look at the top echelon of racers or freeskiers, for example.  What percentage of those dudes even have blogs or whatever, and how many just go ski?

Personally, I'm much more interested in skiing with anybody from anywhere and having beers after than getting into an argument over a hobby.

If there was a thumbs up Icon on this site I'd use it here!  Nice post, Dan.

[bushwacka]

Well, it seems the Sugarbush fatality facts are the person hit a tree, square on. It was captured on video, posted on the web, and then removed. No second party involvement, he appears to have made a mistake. While the video was on the 'net, I saw it, he just went into the woods for no apparent reason. From the local press story.

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/article/20120207/NEWS02/120207018/Skier-in-fatal-Sugarbush-accident-was-Bank-of-America-vice-president-in-Boston?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

For clarity, I agree that skiing on groomers during high density periods is an accident waiting to happen. My home mountain has the ability to put more people up the mountain via high speed lifts than the trails can safely accommodate coming down the mountain. If I ski on weekends, it there very early and leave by 11.

But, to return to Bushwacker's "senseless groomer death" statement, this year two major freestyle skiers have been killed, one in a freeskiing contest and one practicing half-pipe flips. The overwhelming sense of what I have read is grief at the passing, with a minimum of 'live by the sword, die by the sword" sentiment. I know Bush has expressed grief at some of his hero's passing. Why make judgements of persons dying on a groomer just because groomers bore you?

the video was harsh of that guy dieing. but it did show how a reasonable competent (but not even close to expert skier) is in alot of danger skiing on groomers. IF he was on a bump run there is noway he would have been going as fast as he was with his current skill level. If he would have skied off trail all day his chances of dieing would have been none at his skill level(about a level 5-6).

My real goal with post like this is to educate people that grooming is not safe and that eventually we can ski resort return to a MRG style of snow upkeep with VERY limited grooming. I know its a long shot but I am going to keep trying.

Dan I would say nearly every pro freeskier I have ever met and know is HIGHLY involved in the internet. I dare you to find one pro skier/racer who doesnt run their own blog or work for someone else.

http://unofficialnetworks.com/team/

there is alot of known people in this list for the company I work for.  Its a mix from good freeskiers like myself, to video stars like JT Holmes, to US ski teamer all the ways to Big Mountain Competitors out west.  almost every pro freeskier you have heard of posts on the TGR forums.

Also if maybe PMTS should stop bashing the PSIA and then I would stop trying to prove them wrong. Dan if you can make that happen I would stop. 

[midwif]

Josh
THere is no bashing of PSIA here, so keep that grudge on other forums.
Not interested here.

You are free to discuss your approach to skiing.
As are PMTS practitioners as long as they follow the same precepts.

Remember, THIS IS THE NEUTRAL ZONE. 

[dan.boisvert]

My real goal with post like this is to educate people that grooming is not safe and that eventually we can ski resort return to a MRG style of snow upkeep with VERY limited grooming. I know its a long shot but I am going to keep trying.
[snip]
Dan I would say nearly every pro freeskier I have ever met and know is HIGHLY involved in the internet. I dare you to find one pro skier/racer who doesnt run their own blog or work for someone else.
[snip]
Also if maybe PMTS should stop bashing the PSIA and then I would stop trying to prove them wrong. Dan if you can make that happen I would stop.

Well, I wish you luck with reforming the grooming practices.  I like the style at MRG too, but don't think that idea's going to go anywhere.  I'll buy you a case of the beer of your choice if you can get Stratton to adopt it for even a weekend, as long as I get advance notice.  I want to make sure I'm there to see the results. 

Any chance you've found blogs by Marcel Hirscher, Didier Cuche, Marlies Schild, or Bode Miller?  I know Bode was doing one during the last Olympics, but I haven't seen anything since then.  I'd be very interested in linkage to their blogs or those of their coaches, if you're aware of any.

As I suggested before, the "PMTS community" is really a diverse group of individuals.  I think you might see better results by focusing on the claims and arguments of specific people on the forums where they made them, rather than trying to call out the entire system or community globally.  If I had the power to stop the bashing globally, I would've done it already.  Sorry.  Internet squabbling aside, you'd be welcome at one of the Northeast meetups if you wanted to see for yourself what it's like in person; I don't recall hearing any mention of PSIA at all last weekend.