New season ahead? What did I learn?

[LivingProof]

? everyone has the same fundamentals! 

Ron,
Mike's first corollary to the above statement is: "All skis have the same fundamentals". They have a tip, a midsection and a tail; they get you from the top of a lift to the bottom".

I can hear you gagging, but we both know the devil is in the details. How all parts of the body are positioned in a dynamically changing ski turn is a tough subject to understand and build into your turns. Most don't want to be bothered by the complexities, but, it's a subject that's important to me. I'm an engineer by training, therefore, an analytic thinker. I learn very easily by reading, absorbing and then doing. I like reference material that I can access away from the sport. If you don't know what you should be doing, then learning in a vacuum is the default. You are then required to unlearn during instructional periods.

A goal for my upcoming season is to better use the entire upper half of my body more effectively. Perhaps I could "cut and paste" pieces of PSIA, 4 Magic Words, Harb or a specific instructor, but, I choose to listen to one clear voice that I can access in books, video or the net.

All fundamentals the same - NO WAY!

[Ron]

If staying forward, using all edges, big toe little toe, pole planting with hands in front and keeping body quite and level, and leading with the body, skiing stacked and balanced aren't basics, I guess I need to hear what is. The rest becomes more subtlies since there isn't just one postion, one stance, one turn shape. Most is just marketing and branding. Since I am a sales and marketing guy, I can spot that a mile away. All ways are good, good skiing is good skiing. Whether is Clendenin, Harold or whoever.? What are you defending and why?

is there anyting in this series of shots where basic fundamental skiing isn't present?? This skier is skiing out of the La Chiminea. the chute used by the Intl Freeskiing championship in LaParva.? This is great skiing

[jbotti]

I agree with Living Proof. It is in the very specifics that a techers and a students ski technique is defined. To many Pivot slips look like PMTS Short Radius Turns. They are not and doing pivot slips will actually take you fiurther away from being able to do a quality PMTS Short radius turn.

Still it is clear that Ron is getting much of the same commentary out of a variety of different teachers and coaches. One thing si for sure, that's alot better than getting diametrically opposing commenatry from them !!

[Ron]

again guys, you notice you said? "It is in the very specifics that a techers and a students ski technique is defined. To many Pivot slips look like PMTS Short Radius Turns. They are not and doing pivot slips will actually take you fiurther away from being able to do a quality PMTS Short radius turn. "?

You are referring to just one method or thought of what makes a great turn. it does not address the basics. I personally don't think a PMTS short turn is useful or even possible on steep irregular terrain, but I do believe the basics of that turn are sound basics and fundamentals.

Here's a shot from the trip n LaParvea, i am about 10' above this guy.

?


It has nothing to do with the basic facts; basics are basics. Eric is these pics is clearly demonstrating sound fundamentals shared by every "brand" of skiing I know. I see uphill use of ski to turn, I see, downhill edge being pressured, I see forward, stacked skiing, I even see the uphill foot unweighted on the turn.? Hands are perfectly positioned (remember this is far from a groomed blue run )? feet are close and the body is forward, balanced and is heading in the new direction, even a smile!


I'll tell you this, if anyone here can ski as well as ERIC, please enlighten me. I would love to ski half as well.

[Gary]

Hey Gang....if I may jump into this funky quagmire.....

Having learned from Harold strong big toe edge, short radius turns, body and high edge angles, I know there is a place for this kind of skiing....ripping up groomers of all kinds.

I also learned from John Clendenin how using soft edges in steep piitches, using the skis flat in bumps, broken snow, monstrous trenches, gives you the ability to manage speed with more control and less effort.

The common factors I see: learn to use all four edges of your skis, effective pole plants, keep the feet working under the hips, wide stance skiing is not as productive, and always look ahead for the next turn.

Ron, the pics you posted are awesome....love what I see with use of uphill edge, awesome stance, pole plant ready to go...classic.

The industry has some outstanding leaders in skiing methodology....Many of us have been fortunate to ski with some of these leaders....
I truly believe there are cross over bare bone skills that connect all the great instructors.....the secret....find what works for you and allows you to enjoy all the conditions you point your skis downnhill in.

Best,
Gary

[LivingProof]

God, I love the smell of burning napalm in the morning! I'm sorta feeling I ruined Ron's stoke about his Chile trip and that was never my intent. Rereading my post, I believe I spoke for myself only.

Never, ever did or would I say Eric's skiing isn't great. One of the many joys I get from skiing is watching someone who really knows what he's doing come down steeps. To my eye, really good skiing is really good skiing. There are a lot of his positions that could be included in PMTS clinic. Hell, I'd love to ski like Gary or Phil, or just keep up them, or just not fall so hard.

What I do feel strongly about is differentiating good skiing from good teaching and/or good technique. In my world, being balanced (in golf, tennis, or skiing)  is an outcome associated with blending all the motions correctly, i.e. technique supports balance. Skiing and coaching/teaching are different skills. A turn needs viewing as a montage, much more than a picture. A good turn is a process of many different concepts that complimnet each other. Hand, body and leg positions are dynamic and active. If your not right at the start of a turn, you blew it and can only recover.

I did a fair amount of video last spring, and, it shows how far I have to go.

I reserve the right to discuss marketing to future posts where ski selection is the issue.

[jbotti]

"I personally don't think a PMTS short turn is useful or even possible on steep irregular terrain"

I can tell you that it does work everywhere. It is now the only turn that I use. The better example is to wtach Harald ski steeps, crud bumps and all types of hairy and scary terrain. This is the only turn he uses and he skis this stuff effortlessly. I am aways from effortlessly but that doesn't mean the turn doesn't work, just that I need to get better with it.

In steeps I really don't know of anything else that will allow one to ski without building up so much speed that you are now doing Super G turns on ungroomed terrain. Short radius turns are the only way to control speed, and to address Gary's point, they have to be done with a soft (less angled) big toe edge (although with a cranked LTE).

Having said all this, I know Jim is groaning about where this is starting to go!!

The good news is that everyone is psyched about ski season, everyone is focued on technique and on improving their skiing, and everyone has tools (often new) that will help in our quest to be the best skiers that we can. Pretty Sweet!! Now where's the Snow!!!

[jim-ratliff]

I can hear you gagging, but we both know the devil is in the details. How all parts of the body are positioned in a dynamically changing ski turn is a tough subject to understand and build into your turns. Most don't want to be bothered by the complexities, but, it's a subject that's important to me. I'm an engineer by training, therefore, an analytic thinker. I learn very easily by reading, absorbing and then doing. I like reference material that I can access away from the sport. If you don't know what you should be doing, then learning in a vacuum is the default. You are then required to unlearn during instructional periods.

The common factors I see: learn to use all four edges of your skis, effective pole plants, keep the feet working under the hips, wide stance skiing is not as productive, and always look ahead for the next turn.

Ron, the pics you posted are awesome....love what I see with use of uphill edge, awesome stance, pole plant ready to go...classic.

WOW? ? I missed out on the whole morning.? I'm almost amazed that it didn't get too personal in the dicusssion.? I'm with JB, ready for some snow.
I would like to take a different view of all that is being said.

1. I believe that much of the reason a particular form of instruction resonates with us has more to do with us than with the teacher.? Like 'Living Proof' said, I found Harald's books a good way to understand what my body should be doing.? Lynn, on the other hand (due to background and wife of a coach) much prefers interactive coaching rather than trying to visualize based on a book.? If this is so, then by definition there is no single 'best' way to learn.

2. While all cakes have the same fundamental ingredients, not all cakes taste the same. Is the difference in the skill of the cook or in the skill of the instructor who showed the cook how to put the ingredients together? probably both or we would all be Julia Childs.

3. Most of the coaches named above have to "take the students as they come". Unless they do some prescreening, Egan and company (or the Deslauriers) have little control over whether or not their camp attendees have the basic ingredients. I'm not sure, is HH the only one that breaks people down according to where in "his" methodology they need to be learning.? (not counting resort lessons where you jump in with all the other number 5's)

I think Gary hit on a very important distinction above, because he jumped to an instructors viewpoint of "what do I see in their skiing now".

And I agree that if you look at good skiers, you see a lot of common movements in their skiing.? However, that doesn't imply that those movements were arrived at from the same fundamentals just as it doesn't imply that Harald came up with anything new.? As Ron said, its about marketing and branding. Harald identifiend his target market (terminal intermediates, probably initiating with a stem) and came up with what I think is an excellent approach for helping that target market understand common problems and a teaching approach that addressed their needs. And there is a large subset of skiers (evidently) that like the "learning from a book" approach. Dan Egan, on the other hand, probably understands pretty well the types of skiers that are attracted to his camps, and pretty quickly gets a good read on how to help each skier move up a notch or three. For example, if Ron went back next year I believe he would learn just as much as this year, because he is now at a different point in his progression up the skiing ladder and Egan, etal. would adapt their instruction to who he is now.? The same is certain to be true of John Clendenin who also has a targeted market (bumps and all-mountain conditions for people that want to be a little less athletic and who value their knees)?

[midwif]

Aahhh, everyone is settling down!!

This has been, for the most part, a scholarly and interesting discussion.
A little heated at times.

But passion can be good when married to good information. No puns intended.

[Gary]

Ok Jim...what cool and funky stuff are you putting in your cakes? Bring them to Aspen!

I love the feedback here because we all have experienced breakthroughs in skiing via instruction, adaptive and applied skills.

The beauty of all this is that experienced skiers share many crossover skills that dependent on the terrain, their resulting performance may be imperceptible.

 As terrain difficulty increases with variations including pitch, depth of snow, texture of snow, conditions and variation of the snow surface, any weakness in our abilities surface faster than a breaching whale.

The bottom line I think, if what you're doing doesn't work....change! Help is out there......just ask anyone here!?

G

[jim-ratliff]

Gary:

I have a hypothetical coaching question. ?What would John C.'s teaching approach be with a classical terminal intermediate who initiated with a stem christie and then skidded the rest of the turn. ?Or, from Lito Tejada-Flores video the person described as a "windshield wiper skier" (which I once was) skiiing down hill and skidding both heels from side to side. ?(and is that the wedelin turn?)

[Ron]

GENIUS!

I can hear you gagging, but we both know the devil is in the details. How all parts of the body are positioned in a dynamically changing ski turn is a tough subject to understand and build into your turns. Most don't want to be bothered by the complexities, but, it's a subject that's important to me. I'm an engineer by training, therefore, an analytic thinker. I learn very easily by reading, absorbing and then doing. I like reference material that I can access away from the sport. If you don't know what you should be doing, then learning in a vacuum is the default. You are then required to unlearn during instructional periods.

The common factors I see: learn to use all four edges of your skis, effective pole plants, keep the feet working under the hips, wide stance skiing is not as productive, and always look ahead for the next turn.

Ron, the pics you posted are awesome....love what I see with use of uphill edge, awesome stance, pole plant ready to go...classic.

WOW? ? I missed out on the whole morning.? I'm almost amazed that it didn't get too personal in the dicusssion.? I'm with JB, ready for some snow.
I would like to take a different view of all that is being said.

1. I believe that much of the reason a particular form of instruction resonates with us has more to do with us than with the teacher.? Like 'Living Proof' said, I found Harald's books a good way to understand what my body should be doing.? Lynn, on the other hand (due to background and wife of a coach) much prefers interactive coaching rather than trying to visualize based on a book.? If this is so, then by definition there is no single 'best' way to learn.

2. While all cakes have the same fundamental ingredients, not all cakes taste the same. Is the difference in the skill of the cook or in the skill of the instructor who showed the cook how to put the ingredients together? probably both or we would all be Julia Childs.

3. Most of the coaches named above have to "take the students as they come". Unless they do some prescreening, Egan and company (or the Deslauriers) have little control over whether or not their camp attendees have the basic ingredients. I'm not sure, is HH the only one that breaks people down according to where in "his" methodology they need to be learning.? (not counting resort lessons where you jump in with all the other number 5's)

I think Gary hit on a very important distinction above, because he jumped to an instructors viewpoint of "what do I see in their skiing now".

And I agree that if you look at good skiers, you see a lot of common movements in their skiing.? However, that doesn't imply that those movements were arrived at from the same fundamentals just as it doesn't imply that Harald came up with anything new.? As Ron said, its about marketing and branding. Harald identifiend his target market (terminal intermediates, probably initiating with a stem) and came up with what I think is an excellent approach for helping that target market understand common problems and a teaching approach that addressed their needs. And there is a large subset of skiers (evidently) that like the "learning from a book" approach. Dan Egan, on the other hand, probably understands pretty well the types of skiers that are attracted to his camps, and pretty quickly gets a good read on how to help each skier move up a notch or three. For example, if Ron went back next year I believe he would learn just as much as this year, because he is now at a different point in his progression up the skiing ladder and Egan, etal. would adapt their instruction to who he is now.? The same is certain to be true of John Clendenin who also has a targeted market (bumps and all-mountain conditions for people that want to be a little less athletic and who value their knees)?

[Ron]

"I personally don't think a PMTS short turn is useful or even possible on steep irregular terrain"

I can tell you that it does work everywhere. It is now the only turn that I use. The better example is to wtach Harald ski steeps, crud bumps and all types of hairy and scary terrain. This is the only turn he uses and he skis this stuff effortlessly. I am aways from effortlessly but that doesn't mean the turn doesn't work, just that I need to get better with it.

In steeps I really don't know of anything else that will allow one to ski without building up so much speed that you are now doing Super G turns on ungroomed terrain. Short radius turns are the only way to control speed, and to address Gary's point, they have to be done with a soft (less angled) big toe edge (although with a cranked LTE).

Having said all this, I know Jim is groaning about where this is starting to go!!

The good news is that everyone is psyched about ski season, everyone is focued on technique and on improving their skiing, and everyone has tools (often new) that will help in our quest to be the best skiers that we can. Pretty Sweet!! Now where's the Snow!!!

Just curious how you would use short radius turns in on this kind of terrain- pitured above. 

[midwif]

GENIUS!

Careful Ron!! He already thinks he's a genius. I keep assuring him he's far from it.

[Gary]

Hey Jim...I can tell you what Chino would say "don't do that" ?....what John or I would tell you....every good turn begins with the release of the uphill edge. To get a person that stems away from that turn entry, as a drill, you get the student comforable with skiing on an up hill edge traversing across the mountain, the student ?then has a pole touch, tip an scrape the downhill ski in towards the uphill ski and the skis will turn automatically in the intended direction. A drill that can be useful is: pole touch, lift and tip the downhill ski off the ground (2-4") releasing the uphill edge. This makes it virtually impossiibe to stem entry the turn. NO hopping, jumping, turning twisting....just let it happen......What happens after that...is a beautiful thing! ?

G