Float and Velocity and Equipment Choices

[Liam]

JB and Gary,

I remember the first generation of mass produced rockered skis, and I think JB's assessment of them is correct:  Floppy in anything but powder, unpredictable in crud and mixed conditions (when coupled with carving technique especially), horrible on hard snow (I had one miserable day a pair of k2 Hellbents a number of years ago...and it was a powder day!).

But last year I used some very impressive designs that handled varied conditions at a level I would have though impossible for similarly shaped skis a few years ago.  The s3 being one of the most notable examples.  Accepting that we are not talking about skis as cross-over groomer skis, but off-piste dedicated skis with a bias towards soft snow (be it powder, crud, crust or corn), The newest skis--especially in the 98mm waisted category, have thoughtfully taken the new shape designs to impressively versatile levels.  And while a ski like the S3, and maybe not even the Bliz Bonafide, will ever pass the PMTS muster as a constantly self-corrective carving ski, it can and does make nice round turns (created by flexing the legs and tipping the feet and ankles) in all kinds of snow.  It lowers the threshold for 'terminal velocity' needed to ski soft snow with float, and it does really well in mixed crus/ hard snow.  I can't describe the tip as 'floppy.'  And yes, no doubt the ability to drift, side slip, spin, and foot steer in tricky snow is an additional benefit I and many others like.  There is undoubtedly a trade off in hard snow performance and 'learning to carve reinforcement traits' (which I understand is very important to the PMTS gang) but, I think now those attributes come with a much smaller trade off in hard snow performance than they used to.  Small enough, in fact that even strong, edge-oriented experts will often opt for skis like these as their daily drivers on appropriate mountains.

 I ski mostly with guys 10-18 years my junior, in their late 20's/ early thirties who absolutely rip...a not tail-gunning rip, they throw these skis over and haul...their turns are certainly shallower, longer (and way faster) than what I'm after, but they own it in bumps, trees, groomers, air, Back country you name it.   They all ski on skis like these (ok, I'll admit one guy actually skis on the 161cm Shaman as his full time ski...and he is probably the best skier of the bunch) at terminal velocities that would make a race stock GS ski flop.  And yet these skis hold up under these demanding, strong skiers (and yes they are experts, most of the raced in College-two at U Vt). 

I know a few years ago these guys wouldn't have clicked into a rockered design, and for all the reasons that JBotti has elucidated, but now-it is all they'll step mostly for the reasons I've mentioned.

You know, when I first got turned onto PMTS (somewhere around 2002) fat skis were verboten, but I see now HH has come around-and probably because Fat skis got better.  In a few years maybe we'll see the same passive acceptance for a ski with a bit of an elevated tip.

[Gary]

For sure JB I too have been on rockers that the tip flop is wild and those tips really did have a hard time for me to hook up.

The S3 is a good example of a rockered ski that allows the tail and tip to hook up. I think too the amount of rocker is relevant as well as the softness of the shovel and tail.

I've skied along side a skier on a S7 and seen the tails floppin like a sheet in the breeze....not my kind of ski. Even the JJ's shovel was hard to hook up in tight tree sections for me...so I agree there are some rocker skis out there that certainly don't meet my standards....but I think this past year with all the input from riders about what they like and don't like...there is some better rocker fatties that for me...fit the bill.

As we always so...it's always fun to try.

[Gary]

Liam, well stated.

I don't think it's the shape of the ski that prohibits the skier from using PMTS skills...you use them but use other tools as well. I know I don't ski with a lot of forward pressure on my fat skis like I ski my carvers...I don't do that in the powder. I ski the skis quite centered actually with no forceful shovel driving....maybe I'm just more a finesse skier. My boots are quite upright, (Lange RX130Pro), a stance I perform decent with. But I know skiing blower snow at Alta....I'm NOT driving my tips or creating angles like I do with my carvers...I'd be digging trenches and have too much fore aft movement. Still...this only describes the way I ski. Others are going to find what allows them to get the most out of the skis and terrain.

My basic foundation for ski skills is PMTS. What I learned there was invaluable. I also found working with Clendenin off piste, I could ski more softly more finessed and better speed management in crud, bumps and pow. But hey, that's just my ski evolution.

Equipment does play a role in performance and application of our ski skills,....it's just that I believe one size does not fit all as does one skill set fit all applications.

[Liam]

Gary,

I always liked J Clendenin's approach-I have the pDF book, and have worked through it a number of times.  I love the centered drifting approach to off-piste skiing.  It's what lito called 'letting go of the mountain'-which is a great metaphor. The feeling of standing tall, centered and drifting (using a little more flexing than tipping) through unbroken snow is one of my favorite sensations on skis.

What does Clendenin think about the new designs? I imagine, especially as a bump specialist (and an old schooler at that) he'd prefer a rebound laden narrower ski.  I wanted to take a lesson with him...though it's a very pricey endeavor.  The camps look a little to social-low intermediate baby boomerish...but I could be very wrong about that.  Does he offer a gradated skill camp like HH does (I must admit Harald's diversified camp offerings at a great price are pretty awesome and unique in the ski world).

Did you guys see Peter Keelty's most recent post on the homepage of his site about why ski scores are getting higher and skiing seems easier?  Apropos to this discussion.

[jbotti]

Laim, I have said this before (although maybe not on this forum) and that is that Rocker has been a game changer for guys that ski in films or rip that way or at those speeds. I have no direct experience of what it takes to ski those lines, but from what I am told by guys that ski those lines at those speeds (Scott Schmidt being one as we have become decent friends) is that the ability to schmear the tails to bleed off speed makes their work a lot easier and it enables them to ski lines at speeds they would not have attempted on flat tailed skis (where at speed you better be real careful about pressuring the tails!!). So yes, it is definitely changing the face of sking and the way pros and intermediates ski.

As for technique and PMTS technique, I think I have made my points on why rocker doesn't support a skier advancing with that technique and I think all the talk of sliding. pivoting, schmearing etc pretty much proves that out. As I said before, everyone should make their own decision about what they want in a ski and how hard and how far they want to go with acquiring solid PMTS technique.

I wish I had the K2 demo team video that someone threw up on the PMTS forum last year. They had the 2 Crist brothers skiing on tip rockered carving skis and they were demontsrating their high edge angle carving. Now both these guys were on the US Ski team and on the A team at one point in their careers. The skiing is sloppy and the carving would not come close to holding up in a race course. Makes sense, they are no longer racing. But their fore aft position was back which was never the case when they were racing (I Know their coach from the ski team). So is it the skis that they were on that day (rockered tips forcing them aft)? Or is it that they are skiing rockered skis all the time so they naturally have moved aft in all their skiing? or some combination of both? So if the best skiers in the world are finding that their technique is slipping from skiing rockered skis, what do you think they will do for the rest of the skiing public.

Hey in ten years carving and brushed carved SRT's from a forward position on the skis may be a lost art. Clearly the sport is evolving. I will never be able to do what park rats are doing on rockered skis and what they are able to do in the air. It's amazing. But very few of those kids can carve or brush carve arcs the way I can much less the way Max, HH and Diana can. What they do is unattainable for me (I'm 51 and I am not about to start working on my acrobatic jumps!!). It is also unattainable to the vast majoritty of skliers over the age of 30. What I have learned and worked on is attainable for anyone that is willing to put in the time, energy and intensity. I guess that would be the only point. Lost of guys skiing on rockered skis because Sage is on them, but they have no shot of ever skiing like Sage, but they could ski like HH or some close facsimile. But again it is each persons individual choice. Probably a great message for today, 9/11!!

[Liam]

JB,

Sorry I don't get the 9/11 connection. 

Between the Freeride Pros in ski films and the intermediates, there is also a host experts and strong intermediates who like to play on their skis.  And those guys and gals might just find something appealing in all the new designs out there.  And that's where I disagree, you make it sound as if only Sage and low intermediate skier can benefit, enjoy and grow on they newer designs.  I think you willfully over look a pretty big segment in between that is buying and enjoying those skis. And maybe it prohibits them from pursuing Harald's interpretation of the world cup technical standard, but it doesn't make them suck at skiing. 


And you touched on something that is also the heart of the matter...are the Crist Brother deteriorating or evolving? Surely they are in a better place than you to know.  Guys who ski at that level don't 'forget ' how to ski-especially since they still ski for a living.  Is what they're doing in that video (which I remember seeing on the PMTS forum) less aesthetically pleasing than a 'stivot'? 

Funny thing is, I'm not really against you here--for the most part, I work on PMTS style turns in most situations.  I do the drills, I like carving skis for most situations.  But like I said, the guys I ski with aren't film stars and they aren't low level intermediates, they get a lot out of the newer designs.  No need to lament the fact that guys like that don't want to ski like Harald (I don't think they know who Sage is either, honestly...and I'm a long time Dominique Perret fan-never gets his due that guy!).

[jbotti]

9/11 was in relationship to the comment about individual choice, something dear to us in this country and generally unheard of in the countries where the 9/11 hijackers came from.

You may be with me, but I have to correct you again. I have not written or implied anywhere on this threda that any skiing besides what HH teaches "sucks" as you essentially quote me as saying.

Look my point, that I have made over and over (and this will be the last time) is that Rockered skis don't support people doing PMTS movements. Period. I have expalined all the reasons why in great detail. You seem to have an axe to grind and continue to come back from a defensive place with a chip on shoulder.

I can't say it any clearer: everyone should choose what is best for them, and for those that want what rocker gives them (and we all agree that it gives something) then they should go for it and it isn't my place to say they shouldn't. Again when talking about leraning PMTS, I will always say that it is the wrong move if a skier reallly wants to work to gain that skill set.

[Gary]

Hey Liam...I remember Clendenin was not a big fan of twin tips for skiing bumps, even sates so in his book...funny thing is I showed up at camp in Chile with both my skis,...the Kastle MX78 and the Icelantic Pilgrims and for one morning drill day on groomed firm snow, I took out the Pilgrims to prove a point to John. Thsat was that turned up tails do not get in the way or working both feet together if the skier is using good movements and applying solid ski skills to do so. Half way through the morning , he quietly agreed....last time I checked he was skiing bumps on Kastle LX82's so even he is finding the new gear so very versatile.

JB and Max, I know you guys agree that rockered skis do not support PMTS movements....I never asked in what specific movements? So are only certain skis identified to be solely PMTS certified? I'm curious to know what detracts a particular ski from being able to perform PMTS skills. Maybe it's the fact that only limited PMTS movements can be performed on many skis therefore detracting from the riders ability to apply PMTS skills 100% of the time to that ski.

Feed me boys...my brain is hungry! 

[Gary]

Hey Max...there's got to be more...I tip all my skis...it's the one primary I focus on...and I don't think I'm exclusive to that club.

There's got to be more that keeps rockers out of the PMTS club.

G

[bushwacka]

And Liam, I see your point. If you take Gary's Kastle '78 and add 2 inches (10mm) of early rise on the front, they should still ski the same when on the groomed? Makes sense to me.

WOW, I am enjoying this whole thread. Thanks to all. I can't ski it, but I love understanding the physics behind it.

its a shame most of the physics being posted are flat out wrong....

Let just say I let terrain dictate what I am going to dicate to it. I do not a let a mis guiding way of skiing that is missing a whole chunk of what is skiing make me choose skis that force me to not skid turns. Learning to control a slipping edge and do it well and you will be able to ski anywhere. Learn to do it on steep powder runs and you will never want to ski you supershapes again.

I REALLY disagree with the tighter sidecut meaning tighter turns in powder. My SL skis will not and can not turn like my 40 meter thugs in powder, nor did shaman make me a better skier in trees, in fact they were full of caught edges.

these are thugs, these are EC tree run off the beaten path. 40 meter sidecut works amazingly well when you can not ski on the bottom.

[Liam]

BUshwhacker,

Glad you joined in on this conversation.  Are you in yellow in that video? Who is skiing on the Icelantic Nomads?  That's what I use as my Powder ski (the 181 SFT-same edition as in the video)-which aren't rockered and have 20m turn radius...Just saying, who ever was on them kept pace with you on the Thugs enough to keep you in the video.

Aside from that-I like that video and I think it's instructive...Exper t East coast powder tree skiing benefits from skis that do more than merely respond well to tipping.  You're the missing voice in this conversation.

JBotti,  I am sorry If I have been reading your comments wrong.  My impression was (is) that

1. You feel rockered skis, early rise designs only benefit the extreme edge of big mountain free skiing and low level intermediates who twist every turn.

2. You also imply that Strong intermediates, aspiring experts and actual experts will not progress in their skiing, and in fact see their skills deteriorate (ala the reference to the skiers in the aforementioned K2 video) due to using these sort of skis.

3. That the growing prevalence of such designs is not based on efficacious enhancements of the general public's ski experience, but on  marketing that preys upon the average skier's delusional aspirations to ski like ski **** stars (I believe you referenced Sage Cattabriga), when they ought to be pursuing a far more attainable, carving technical vision of expert skiing, like Harald (In fact, I think that is exactly how you concluded one post).

If I am wrong on any of these assumptions, I apologize, and please tell me and tell me how that's misreading your positions.  If these are your (and Max's I ought to add) positions...well, I strenuously disagree with components of each one. 

And, I will continue to strenuously disagree when such positions are posted on this forum.  Consider me the loyal opposition if you will.  And it's not personal, I, Like everyone who posts on this smaller, focused, intelligent forum am passionate about skiing and I enjoy the give and take discussions AND arguments surrounding the direction of ski technology and technique.

Liam

[jim-ratliff]

Liam:

Remain the "loyal opposition" --- but the word opposition still implies that this is a PMTS centric forum and I would hope that Liam and Bushwacka and Gary and John and Max are all equal --- in the sense that they are free to explain how and why they enjoy skiing and particular skis without being criticized or judged.

Regarding your three points, I think all of John's (and Max's) statements have been in the context of "FOR SKIERS THAT HAVE ALREADY DECIDED TO FOLLOW THE PMTS APPROACH" and that John has included that as his baseline.

But it's also clear from the examples of your friends, the guys at Snowbird that Peter Keelty referenced (someone posted about that somewhere earlier), as well as the people that Bushwacka skis with, there are some rippin skiers that may have never heard of PMTS and have a dramatically different approach to how to do it, and we all know that PMTS still represents only a small segment of the skiers at most ski resorts.

But also, remember that this thread was originally about skis that Harb Ski Systems recommended and why, so John and Max's points have been pretty consistent and on-topic.

[jbotti]

Liam,I think at this point I am done explaining myself. What I have said is clear and what I haven't said is also clear.

[Gary]

Bushwacka....you got some good moves in the woods brother...AND .. the music had me smilin'!

Trees like that spook the daylights out of me...there were some open sections you had to lumberjack through to get to I liked but I guess you gotta grow up skiing in there...nice stuff.

As far as opinions and thoughts...what I've always appreciated about this site is that we can all express ourselves on a particular thread or the Thread Marshall  moves us to another thread...

I know I put the question out there realtive to PMTS movements as specific to this site and tipping was the factor suggested.

So...in theory if any ski can be tipped with PMTS movements, then it's on the team?

Anyways, if I were to summarize, I think we all agree tools and conditions, rewards and benefits are the most agreed to principals.

G

[LivingProof]

A friend, who is very skilled in Organizational Development, has a ground-rule for discussion in meetings, and, I've found it very meaningful.

"We all have the truth"

So, I'm fine with anyone stating their personal reality. Let's just not get reduced to the classic Saturday Night line: Jane, you ignorant ****!

There is one PMTS related issue that causes me some confusion, and that is the "brushed turn" and it's applicability to real skiing in tree like conditions where making turn in a radius far less than that of the ski, referred to as one and two foot releases. In Harald's second book, Expert Skier 2, he demonstrates turns where he barely moves down the hill and the skis are clearly sliding, not carving. His teaching concept is to put the body in the correct positions and the ski will just make the turn with no pivoting action. I practice this a fair amount, and, implement it in bumps and other tight situations. While I don't claim to appreciate the nuances of Clendenin technique, my thinking is Harb and JC are not that different with respect to minimizing active rotation.

My belief is that this skill is very similar to what Bushwacker espouses, other than in one school, active rotation is taught, in another, active rotation is attacked. I remember Max doing an Epic video thread showing the brushed turn, he may have called it the "bullet proof short turn" and he got crucified on Epic for not carving, plus, a lot of laughs at he concept of a "brushed" turn is different from a skidded turn.

Another common aspect between JB's OP and Bushwacker's video is that velocity is important. As a less skilled skier, obtaining terminal velocity in difficult situations is threatening, sometimes, very stupid.

In closing my mini-rant, let me finish with a final thought: I've been known to be wrong many times.