Message #16185

[bushwacka]

High Angles:  What's your thoughts on the use of rocker with PMTS movements, and why have rockered skis become so popular?

I think that the "why are rockered skis so popular?" question has been adequately answered.  Enough said.

Here are my thoughts on current rocker design and what I would like to see more of.

I think that where the manufacturers are leading skiers down a scary path is with the early rise designs.   Rather than going back to the drawing board and creating a ski that incorporates rocker intelligently they cater to the terminal intermediates and just bend the tip of the ski.  Until about 2009 we all called those skis with bent tips "broken" - now they call them early rise.  The problem stems from the fact that all they've done is bend up the tip without adjusting the sidecut position, tip/tail taper profiles, or the binding mount position.  The claim is that once the ski is on edge it works just like any traditional ski, but where they are trying to fool everyone is that they're skipping the discussion about the all important transition in the release when moving to the new set of edges.  Good PMTS skiers are skilled at really making a ski work at the top of the turn with early edge engagement without direction change due to pivoting or skidding.  What the early rise designs lack is that early initial tip engagement that puts the power into the top of the turn and brings that energy into the apex.  For skiers who really aren't on their edges until the apex of the turn I guess this isn't a big deal and they like the "forgiveness" of an early rise ski since it reduces the edge catching that probably plagues them.

So for me these early rise designs are frustrating to the point of hatred (and I don't consider myself a highly skilled PMTS skier yet).  Even after testing quite a few of these designs over the past couple years I still decided to experiment myself last season with the purchase of a Palmer P02 ski.  This is a narrow front-side carver that has a rockered tip.  I tried 3 or 4 different binding positions on those skis and never could get comfortable with the "fishy" feel and loss of precision those skis have at the top of the arc.  They're just missing that tip engagement feedback that I want to have in my turns.  Once they're in a nice carve they're fine, but they sure don't reward good technique as PMTS defines skiing.

So what I would like to see more of are skis that are designed more as traditional skis when used on the hard pack, but "transform" themselves into excellent deep snow/mixed condition skis when it goes 3D.  So imagine your typical 165cm SL ski and then just extend the tip and tail in a low rocker profile until you have a ski with an extra 5-10cm on each end (of course it would be wider too).  The real key though is the tip and tail taper.  Compare a DPS 112RP, Moment PB&J, or Armada JJ to skis like the Rossi Experience 98 or any ski where the tip/tail continues to get wider as they rise off the ground.  The Rossi Experience series aren't bad skis, but I have a pretty good idea that they are going to have problems in crud and deeper 3D snow due to their shape.  When I demoed them I didn't get to ski them in cruddy conditions, but skis with early taper tips/tails reduce the grabbiness when the going gets tough.  Go hit global.skipass.com and review all their ski shots taking note of the shape of the ski designs.  IMO, the better newer rocker designs all use early taper tips/tails.  They also have adjusted the position of their sidecuts (married well to the rocker profile) and considered the binding mount point carefully.  I want a mount position that is ideal for when the ski is on a groomer.  The only time the longer tip comes into play is in deep snow and then it's actually an advantage to have more ski out in front of you.  This is exactly how the DPS Wailer 112RP skis.  The flex pattern on that ski is also stiffer through the tip and tail so that they don't flop around so much when they're just hanging in the air when you're on hard pack.

So that's what I'm thinking at the moment.  Of course more testing and more skiing will keep this an ever evolving opinion.  So don't shoot me when I hit some other new revelation a few months down the line.

first rockered skis predate 2009 by quite a bit. Spatula, tabla Rasa, DPS, Hellbent, Pontoon, people bending their old Powder Pluses. Heck I notice my Gotama got better at skiing powder after the tips were smashed up from 200+ days of skiing them. Anyone with an understanding of physics can tell you why these things are better in soft snow.

The main stream manufactors have finally figured out how to build a rockered skis that rips the whole mountain pretty well and gives every level of skier options. Where I ski not pivoting or skidding will lead to injury or death.

PMTS is a limiting system of skiing in the fact it says some movements are 'bad' not only that its says the skis that allow to you do those movements 'are bad". I got news for the General skiing public does not care whether they carve every turn or ski dynamically, they just want to have fun. At Stowe and MRG and Snowbird(the 3 places I ski the most)  you now see Rockered skis pretty much on every rippers and not so rippers foot. Simply because they work better for more people than non rockered skis.

You guys can keep buying skis that wont let you pivot or skid easily in soft snow and you guys can keep doing your fancy little turns in open areas, but when you want to see what the real locals are doing I suggest you get off your high horse and get on mine.