new fats and easier skiing

[midwif]

Agreeing with the majority of the board here.
There was a real increase in both speed and mainlining down the blues/greens.
I felt nervous numerous times this past week.

I was on the lift with 3 young guys. The one next to me was a bit rude when I joined them from the singles line.
Then he proceeded to take out a beer and drink it.
All the while chatting with his friends about going fast, getting air etc.
No ski patrol at the top to mention this to.
The liftie told me he wasn't able to enforce it (no ETOH on lift) unless a patrol person was right there.

Just the kind of scenario to lead to someone getting hurt.

L.

[Liam]

That is the biggest problem right there...drinking and skiing (with a mix of irreverence and an oppositional defiant youth culture to boot!).  People are the scariest thing on any ski hill.  And young guys drinking are the scariest of them all.  I think that there is a level of selfish aggressiveness that permeates much of the culture these days and it's seeped into the ski resort scene. 

One of the most important reasons to become an expert skier is to get away from the rental darts on the blues and greens.

I'm sorry about your friend, Max--It just sucks to get whacked and hurt doing something you really enjoy.

[beastieboy]

Hi Max,

Generally seeing them or finding them is what prevents the pass being pulled.  I doubt that any of us have a problem with pulling passes on someone that endangers other people on the slopes. 

Sorry to hear about your buddy.  Hope he recovers quickly.

John

[LivingProof]

How does a ski area mandate personal responsibility? I may be wrong, but, I don't think the primary mission of the Patrol is to ID and eliminate dangerous skiers. Personally, I would not want to be the on the force responsible for enforcement. Like it or not, the skiing culture is akin to "buyer beware"...you pay your money and take your chances.

My belief is that management of ski areas does not want to be in the business of pulling passes based on subjective observations.  Please tell me how I objectively know that someone is skiing in control? Anybody ever see speed limit signs and is a GPS in your goggles a requirement to know how fast you are going? OK, I've seen "slow skiiing area" banners, but, rarely is there someone to enforce it. We rant about boarders, but, people training on GS skis scares the heck out of me. Is random testing for alcohol done in a lift line at your local hill. Heck, my mountain will sell you plenty of cans of beer.

Not trying to condone unsafe behavior, but, the next time one of us passes a novice skier at high speed and with, what we consider a safe margin, how do you know that skier does not consider us a hazard? The "code" is a guideline at best, and, there are always two sides to a story. Shared negligence is a way of life in our legal system.

[jim-ratliff]

Max:

Apples and oranges? It's easy to maintain surveillance of the entire rink. Not so with the entire mountain (unless you are talking about the 4 run local hills in Virginia).
The challenge is getting the witness, the "accused", and the patroller together.  Like your friends case, they often just ski away.
However, I believe it IS a misdemeanor in Colorado to leave the scene of a ski accident.
I will also say that we saw numerous patrol at Breck last week enforcing the SLOW zones. They were having a Mt. Dew Tour event (won by Shawn White) so that may have contributed to the vigilence; or maybe it was because of limited terrain that was open.

LP: I don't think you can mandate responsible behavior, but hopefully you can still hold them accountable for the consequences. Hitting someone IS skiing out of control (unless it's me running into Lynn, and thats stupidity), is contrary to the skiers code and, I believe, Colorado law.  But it's much like speeding on the highways, there is a lot of judgement in when the police officer chooses to pull someone over for speeding (and if he is even around to see you speeding).

I will say that Lynn and I were very careful all week to pick gaps in traffic to find space to ski and tried to stay on the less trafficked part of the trails (usually the edges).

[jim-ratliff]

If you want a really stable ski try a ~190 27m GS ski. That's what I race and demo on... maybe not practical for most skiing, but you'll be hard put to find a more stable non-speed ski. My 206 SG's own...

As Max said, wide skis are more stable when the conditions are variable. Fair enough I guess as some of the most stable all-mountain skis I own are 180cm Rossi CX80s - lots [seriously a shitload] of edge there.

BUT, and this is the catch..... it is about how much edge can be put on the snow. That has a huge impact on stability. Think about what rocker and early rise do to this equation... Why do you think we [as in the skiers you want to ski like] still ski on traditional camber skis?

Someone had to say it.

If I need to explain it...

Max/Helluva:
I agree that the above is "A" definition of stability.
However, there are multiple perceptions of stability just as there are multiple definitions of rocker.
For a lot of resort skiers, stability is a ski that doesn't wobble back and forth from edge to edge and doesn't squirm around when being skied flat on the snow.  For this majority (maybe as high as 90%), stability is purely width -- that gives them a wider base to stand on and feels "more stable" and will squirm less because the ski is flatter on the snow because the width makes it harder to edge.  Not saying it's good for skills, but someone had to say it? 
I feel more "stable" standing in shoes than I do standing on ice skates.  Same principle.  The fact that it's real hard to get my shoes to edge in the ice isn't relevant to them.  I'll "control my speed" by sliding my shoes sideways (at real low edge angles).

[Liam]

Its not about surveillance, its about the consequences of behavior that is a danger to others. How often does a ski patroller pull a pass when the person in question is out of control and/or has hit someone?

I've stopped people and spoken to them face to face, but in truth, I haven't ever pulled a ticket in 6 years of Patrolling. 

Now, where I work, I have to say, reckless skiers on crowded greens isn't a very big problem.  Our patrol is pretty large for a small area and we all ski around a lot (we don't stand posts or just wait in the shack to be called to a wreck) so we have a good presence.

 We just don't get the Joey-Bada-**** that crowd the slopes of Jiminy, Huntah, Mountain Creek (the most dangerous ski area in the world on a saturday!) and the bigger VT resorts on a weekend.

On the other hand, I have tried skiing with lower skilled friends, and my kids on busy weekends at major Vermont resorts--and that's a nightmare (and a blood bath, quite honestly)--Patrol is almost non-existant, in terms of presence, on these hills--If I worked there, I would pull a few passes a day (however, since these areas thrive on catering to the reckless adolescent children of well-healed gapers from Fairfield County and Westchester, I bet I'd have to give a bunch of those passes back with management breathing down my neck). 

I once was involved in a very violent altercation at Mount Snow after my 4 year old was knocked out his skis by a 30 year old boarder (I'm older and mellower now however...).

Escaping these people at big resorts was the main impetus behind my drive to become an expert skier...Fat skis or not, only the skilled skiers can hang in the trees and steep bumps, the same skier that is a train wreck on the greens, ain't even a speed bump on Devil's Fiddle (which is why they terrorize the greens and blues in the first place).

I bet you Mad River Glen never has these problems. 

[Gary]

We've all seen reckless skiers..scary stuff and sometimes, too many times, too close for comfort.

I had this thought a few years back....

If a patroller finds someone shooting out of the woods and not looking up hill, ski banzai on a green beginer teaching run, straight lining a black run, front or backwards, they get stopped and have to go in and watch a one hour courtsey and saftey video. Heck, why not even offer a mandatory 10 minute saftey coursefor all beginner skiers in lessons on LOOKING UPHILL before taking off. Children of non skiing parents don't know any better cause the parents don't know. When the parents don't know and their kids get taged...how about seeing that the parents get to go to the "mandatory" saftey course too.

It just seems too many resorts are reluctant to upset those skiers willing to pay $75 for the privledge of skiing on their mountain....I'd almost think that if a program like this was introduced, insurance cost might even go down.

One can only dream...g

[jim-ratliff]

I like that.  Just like putting the kids in "timeout" when they were little or sending them to detention hall (or study hall) when they were older.

How about a work study or community service program.  They have to shovel some snow for the lift operator for 15 minutes to "pay" for their offense.

I think anything that shines the spotlight on the undesirable activity would probably be good.
Of course, I would be lonely skiing by myself when Lynn gets tagged for banzai skiing on a green run. 

[beastieboy]

Its not about surveillance, its about the consequences of behavior that is a danger to others. How often does a ski patroller pull a pass when the person in question is out of control and/or has hit someone?

As most of you know, Liam and I work at the same spot, and I have not pulled a pass in 3 years.  I have given a lot of lectures (generally to the younger set) prepared to pull the pass if I get any attitude.  If they have gotten the message and look like they are going to put it into practice, they are off the hook.  But, it pretty much never happens that we are standing right there when one skier clocks another. 

Most of us don't relish the role of traffic cop - I know I don't.  There are some patrollers who really love to try to catch people poaching closed trails etc.  If someone is merely putting themselves at risk, I generally won't intervene unless a kid is involved.  They haven't earned the right to make all their own decisions yet (not that they won't suffer the consequences).  Of course, I also know who is going to be up all night searching for the person who hits a tree in the middle of the woods and doesn't show up at the lodge at closing time.

It would be impossible for the patrol (or anyone else at a ski area) to catch everyone skiing out of control, just as (thankfully) it is impossible for the traffic cops to catch everyone who speeds.  When we catch them, they are reminded of their responsibility.  If they don't get it, the pass is gone.  It's another use for those EMT shears.

Liam, I pity the boarder, messing with the 'Irish Mafia'.  Did Shorty learn a think or two about hooks and jabs?

[bushwacka]

when I see people straight lining or just going way to fast around people I just normally hope they end up in the woods without hitting anyone else.

with that said IMO the real problem is grooming. Grooming lets people be dangerous, and makes the snow harder and overall let people with lesser skill carry speeds they have no business carrying.

 The simple phase as your suck, and have no business skiing that fast on that run can have quite the affect on people when they follow me...if they can.....its really easy to make them realize how much they do suck. when I lead them to a mile long of bumps.