new fats and easier skiing

[Gary]

You all were discussing transition from skiiny to fats and how the art of creating angles has slipped away. Thought I start a new thread.

I saw this very thing up at Deer Valley this past week skiing with a friend of mine who for the past 5 years was on a 70mm waist ski. David has little to no carving abilities period. He loves to be out on snow but only gets out about 15 days a season. His past experiece with the 70mm waist ski was getting bounced and pushed around on a ski that because he didn't drive the ski, it drove him.

He left that ski at home and I put him in a 2012 Dynastar Legend 85, 172 length, 13m turnig radius. He totally loved the ski...did he have better form..no sir, BUT, his turns were rounder, he had more control, the piled up mid-day crud didn't push him around and he even got some soft bumps with scraped off in between under his belt.

For him, the rocker tips on a 85 platform and 13 m turning radius was the perfect combo to what end?

For him, to just go out 15 days a year and just have fun, feel in control....he know's he'll never look pretty skiing, he just want to make turns, play in different kinds of snow and not feel beat up at end of day.

Now that's not many of us here for sure...but for David....he's one happy camper.  G

[HeluvaSkier]

I'll be happy when companies once again, start to make skis for people who can already ski. We used to have a term for today's crop of "all-mountain" skis... it was "beginner skis".

[LivingProof]

I don't think we should come down real hard on peps that want to ski 15 days a year. If they find a ski that can be twisted around and plows through piled up crud, fine by me. Maybe, someday, they may want to ski at a different level and make that investment both financial and skill/time - their choice not mine. Presumably, they are just out for the same fun as a more skilled skier.

The above does not apply to the class of skier that zooms along with little control and poses a threat to anyone on the hill.

Hmm, maybe David will buy a DPS 112 and all his problems will be solved! 
Forgive me G, low blow. I owe you one!

[HeluvaSkier]

I'm not knocking the 15-day skier, but rather the ski companies for catering the vast majority of their skis to the 15-day skier.

[Liam]

Yeah, but that skier IS also the majority, period.  I don't have  a problem with people who don't want to turn their limited play time into work time in pursuit of expert skiing, nor with them buying a product that works with whatever skills (or lack there of) they bring with them.


If the new designs fit those shoes, so be it (though, I am not sure it has been proved conclusively that they do).

The Sultan 85 is actually a pretty capable ski...even on the feet of a much stronger skier.

[Gary]

I too think the Dynastar Sultan is a capable ski in the hands of a good skier...What I'm seeing is how much versatility some of these new skis are offering to many level of skiers.

Sure there may be sacrifices in performance in certain areas with the new designs,  but to the plus side, there's some amazing gear out there that have a wide range of capability.

Not sure I agree the new gear is making people ski faster....I started skiing 26 years ago and there were a few speed nuts then (including me) skiing at the brink of disaster.

I just see those 15 days guys as enjoying their experience more and maybe just maybe, more safely because the gear they are on is much more forgiving. I noticed in Davids case, he had more more speed control and body control with the Sultans compared to his older skis. He wasn't getting thrown or bounced around as much.

AND Mike...only SPECIAL People get to ride the DPS....   HA!

[Liam]

Could we are seeing a larger number of people skiing at speeds that exceed their level of control? Recently I have had that feeling. I suspect the early rise/rocker is a factor because the easy turn initiation provides an illusion of control.

Nah, it's just you're getting older and more crotchety.

[bushwacka]

Could we are seeing a larger number of people skiing at speeds that exceed their level of control? Recently I have had that feeling. I suspect the early rise/rocker is a factor because the easy turn initiation provides an illusion of control.

I love darwinism!

but does not really affect me. I tend to avoid people.

[bushwacka]

My goal is to get the kids to go faster so that isn't likely! 

Because wider skis feel more stable skiers feel more comfortable at higher speeds. Problem is that control comes from technique so we get an increase in speed without an increase in control. Not a good combination.

wider skis are more stable. They do not just feel more stable.

[jbotti]

Yeah I have to agree with Max on that one. There are some wide skis that are made like GS skis (Stockli used to make several) that rail on hard snow and are incredibly stable. But most wide skis today have some amount of rocker, a lot less metal and they are by no means more stable than a thin GS ski with huge amounts of metal. There really isn't an argument here, it's just simple physics. The more metal the more stable and while there may be some wide skis with as much metal as a GS ski today they are few and far between, and most people can't ski on them anyway.

[bushwacka]

Are you sure? On a groomer, compare a 24m GS ski up on edge at 45mph to a 24m 100mm waisted ski up on edge at 45mph.

if the groomer is truly hardpack and smooth the GS skis, if it is any bit irregular than the 100mm skis

[HeluvaSkier]

If you want a really stable ski try a ~190 27m GS ski. That's what I race and demo on... maybe not practical for most skiing, but you'll be hard put to find a more stable non-speed ski. My 206 SG's own...

As Max said, wide skis are more stable when the conditions are variable. Fair enough I guess as some of the most stable all-mountain skis I own are 180cm Rossi CX80s - lots [seriously a shitload] of edge there.

BUT, and this is the catch..... it is about how much edge can be put on the snow. That has a huge impact on stability. Think about what rocker and early rise do to this equation... Why do you think we [as in the skiers you want to ski like] still ski on traditional camber skis?

Someone had to say it.

If I need to explain it...

[Gary]

Different sticks for different conditions...especi ally and maybe specifically for the technically qualified skier. I don't get out my DPS to go super fast...I get out the MX78's.

The rest that are not hucking cliffs or zipping along at 35 mph....different needs.

g

[Perry]

Yeah I have to agree with Max on that one. There are some wide skis that are made like GS skis (Stockli used to make several) that rail on hard snow and are incredibly stable. But most wide skis today have some amount of rocker, a lot less metal and they are by no means more stable than a thin GS ski with huge amounts of metal. There really isn't an argument here, it's just simple physics. The more metal the more stable and while there may be some wide skis with as much metal as a GS ski today they are few and far between, and most people can't ski on them anyway.

I agree with this and Max I am sorry about your friend, that just should not happen as much as it does.

But I really don't think it has to do with fat skis.  Most people thankfully never go fast enough to test the limits of their ski design.  I think much of the problem is an unwillingness of ski slopes to use their ski patrols to enforce a skiers responsibility code.  They are doing a better job of writing it up and putting it on their ski maps etc.  I just rarely see it being enforced on the hill.

What is everyone else seeing out there?

[Gary]

Max...sorry about your buddy....sucks...ho pe it's not an injury that keeps him off the snow too long.

I actually got hit from behind and spun around at Jackson 2 seasons ago...the guy also fell...got up and just took off...

Man...what the heck is up with some people.

I too do agree that many many and too many people ski way to fast for their ski skills, crowds and conditions.

As Peter Kelty said to me a few years back at Alta..."always ski in a bubble'!

G