A Peter quote regarding wide skis that I had never considered.

[jim-ratliff]

A quote from Peter's recent 'personal favorites' article.  The first sentence I understand, the second I had never considered.  I had always understood that edging a wider ski took more pressure against the inside of the boot, but never thought about it requiring more speed.

1. Wider skis respond more slowly and the wider the ski, the more slowly it responds.

2. Moreover, the wider the ski, the faster the skier must go to obtain the same edge angle.

[Ron]

I'm baaack!  Yes, this is what were bantering about last season. This is really where the problem lays, the novice to intermediate doesn't have the skills to feel the ski and adjust the edging and timing of the turn when skiing on a wider ski, the advanced skier can overcome and adjust to this if the have the skills. I still think there are so many more self proclaimed expert skiers who simply stand on the ski and tip in a more passive way, a combo of old school and some new school edging. These skiers will see less of these delays however due to the lack of angulation and aggresive edging. This is where you see so many saying that the wider skis are so much better. If you don't have the skills to get out and over, it won't make that much of a difference. In general, the tighter the turn, the more lag time, big sweeping GS turns are not the issue.

[jbotti]

I can say that after skiing on slalom skis for a season, I can now go back to wider skis and carve them and make them behave in a way that I could not before being on the slalom skis. I think peter's and Ron's points are right on. If you have technique you can make a wider ski behave. Trying to gain that technique on the wider ski is difficult and learning it is best served on thin skis with a tight turning rdius. JB.

[Ron]

Thanks and exactly correct. I didn't get this until I basically did the same last season. I skied Nordica hot rods @74 and now my 82's after skiing on the head 1400's,fischer RC's and my all-time fav, the Supersport. It did take a bit of adjustment in timing and input. This adjustment is just where the novice, not having the skills won't have the control or understanding of the "rolling" process, they won't get the "feel" of it. I must admit, I still prefer the thinner ski for carving.  The 82 is a blast to ski but i don't have the ease of tipping into a deep carve that you get with the SS. You can rock it over but it does have the delay and the extra effort on short, deep carving turns. On longer GS however, the 82 is a bullet train, fast, super stable and leaves some deep trenches. Its a lot of fun when making those turns but i prefer the higher G trurns.

[Dave T]

If I interpret the reples correctly everyone is talking about Quickness.  ie. quickness of the ski to engage side to side.  We can modify technique to adapt to the ski performance but as pointed out these are technical skills that teh novice/ intermediate skier will not possess.  So why would we want to ski a fat 'slow' (not in speed) on a groomer.   Don't get me wrong, I love making high speed GS carves, but a ski that is also quick is fun to ski on the groomers.

Unless I want to spend most of the day off piste why would I want a mid fat ski.  I am currently skiing 71 mm waist 182 cm Dynastar Intuitiv.  The answer by the ski shops is to ski the midfat shorter BUT I worry about the ability to cruise in off piste conditions with less than 175cm length.
Oviously need  2 or 3 pairs of new skis

Dave

[jbotti]

Dave, I never ski anything but slalom carvers on groomed terrain. When it snows I break out fat powder skis. I personally see little need for mid fat skis. I think that you can make a case that at a place like squaw on an 8" powder day, The IM 82 (and other skis like it) may be the perfect ski to go all over the mountain (with chop, crud and moguls and an occasional stash of untracked later in the day). Having said that, I can have just as much fun on the same terrain with my Head Super Shapes in those same conditions and have a lot more fun on the groomed terrain heading for the lift. Unless you have unlimited budget or budget for only one pair of skis (and you ski at places that get alot of fresh snow) midfats don't make a lot of sense IMHO.?

[jim-ratliff]

Ron pretty much hit on what I was hearing Peter saying.  Not only is the push for wider skis questionable, it is in fact counter-productive for fairly new skiers that want to get better.  Wide skis are slower to come up on edge and quicker to go back flat because of the lever arm of the distance of the edge from the fulcrum, and we all discussed that quite a bit last year (also as Ron says).  Once on edge, a wider ski can be very "turny" because that is a function of sidecut and not of width.

What I hadn't thought about is the requirement that edging a wider ski also takes more speed, another component that the beginner skier isn't likely to have either because they are still on green terrain or are still very tentative on blue terrain.  And I sort of understand.  I can tip my slalom skis standing vertical pretty easily because they don't take a lot of edging power.  Because of the width it's hard for me to tip the iM77's without getting more of my weight off center.  When I'm not moving I would have to lean on my poles or against something.  When moving, that same increased weight transfer requires more speed to generate the centripetal force to hold me in place.  And for the beginner who is probably just leaning into the turn instead of angulating, they need to get even farther inside the turn to move the center of mass the same amount as someone like Ron who angulates until the bumper feelers hit the snow.

I just thought Peter's statement was very insightful.

[Ron]

Ahha!  I didn't fully understand what you were saying. That's an interesting observation, you are correct though, the speed required to edge the ski, coupled with the distance traveled during the lag could be the perfect recipe for novices and intermediates for disaster for either themsleves, me or both! Never thought of it that way. Now I'm scared.

[Gary]

I've been trying to take in this issue of wide and narrow skis, harder, faster,...etc.

When using PMTS movements my experience tells me you can create angles at both slow and high speeds. Given that the wider boards natural turn radius is longer than their skinnier counterparts, the narrow ski makes skiing shorter turns natural to that ski side cut much easier. Using the same angles created by tipping and counter, the longer boards will turn vary nicely also within their natural turn radius directed by their sidecut. Whatever ski, narrow or wide, I believe skiing with the body centered letting the feet work under you, is key to solid turns in all terrain at any speed with any ski.

The wider and longer skis certainly may need a bit more motion to get going because there is more resistance with more surface. Now if you're skiing INSIDE the natural turning radius of that ski...in otherwords shortening up those turns, for sure the wider ski is going to be more work in (did I put enough anti-persperiant on) more work, certainly more work than the narrower skis. But cruising within the natural radius of that ski..tip, lift, and counter...stay centered, keep your hands in sight, just dance baby, dance, the feet is where the magic is.


Still, it's is much easier for beginners through intermediates to make turns on skis in the 63-68mm waist.? But turning is turning...ya got the skills, skiing with most skis under 95mm waist can be be tipped edge to edge just as easily with those who have the skills,.... at slow speeds as well as wipe the tears out your eyes speeds.

Just one mans opinion,
Gary

[Ron]

Gary, we agree but the rules change when you are a novice or intermediate. Since turning is more deliberate and les inuitive, that person will take longer to turn and thereby require more room to turn, velocity*time=distance. In a sport where a holy Sh*T there's tree (or Gary) is measured in fractions of seconds, it all counts..

[Gary]

Yep that understood, having the skill set is undeniably key...I was referring to the comments Jim made regarding Peters thoughts on wide skis.

"Wider skis responding more slowly" & "wider ski needing more speed to get the same edge angles"

Having a hard time agreeing with the word selections...maybe it's just semantics, but I stand by my interpretation.

G

[Ron]

went back and re-read your post, yes, I aslo agree and will add one more observation. You made a great point about turning within the natural radius, this is actually the crux of it, dahh, yes, it a novice is on a 19m R ski, then its only simple physics that they cannot turn as qucikly or as tightly (or with control) as if they are on a 15m ski.

[Gary]

ZACKLY!

[jim-ratliff]

 Not sure whether I agree or not with Peter's second statement, it's hard to know since I don't completely understand.  Here's what I think he is saying. 

Assume a 66 mm waist vs a 76 mm waist.  The effective balance point (where the force comes from the boot) is 5 mm farther from the edge of the wide ski, so more force is required to tip the ski to the same edge angle as the narrower ski.  Where does that force come from?  It comes from higher in the kinetic chain, requiring that the body mass be slightly farther inside the turn (creating more leverage).   That's where I get lost.  The skier is in balance on either the wide or the narrow ski at the same edge angle, and the extra force required by the wider ski is being provided by (slightly) greater body angles. 

That's where I get lost.  I don't see anything here that would require more speed?

[Ron]

See if this helps:

Novice skiier is coming down the mountain on 82mm skis and needs to make turn to avoid Gary who is adjusting the buckles on his boots following moving his bindings? ? As a novice skier, he is more deliberate in his actions and needs more time to calculate and make the turn, in addtion, he is not as adept at feeling his edges and get good agulation, all this is really a function of time, as time marches on, that translates into distance, so now the novice is barrelling towards Gary and is attmepting to make the proper radius turn to miss him. Will he miss Gary or will Gary br impailed by the acid green 82?

The advanced skier is coming down the mountain on his 82's and needs to avoid Gary, yet again!? This time his instincts (muscle memory) kick in, he slides that uphill knee over to the inside, straightens the downhill leg and rips a clean trench without thinking. All done at a higher speed and in shorter amount of space.

The wider the ski the more time it takes to affect changes to in conjuction with a skier that does not function with the same effeciencies