Author Topic: Curious about PMTS...  (Read 1772 times)

georgelichti

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Curious about PMTS...
« on: December 27, 2007, 03:06:00 am »
Let me preface by saying I am new, virgin new, to skiing. I have about one hour of dinking around on a bunny slope sans lessons total time and am an active and fit 36 year old man, 6'1" (1.85M) 176 lb (79Kg). For whatever that is worth.

Excuse in advance for a long post, but everyone involved with skiing is to blame. Had you not made it so cool I would not be so interested! 

OK, having looked at anything I could find PMTS-related I have some questions. I already bought Harald Harbs "Essentials..." book and DVD which should arrive in a week or so.

1) Most important, since I am nowhere near any accredited school/instructor of this, or any similar discipline, I have to ask as a newbie, can one learn to ski properly and safely, from scratch, on ones own using tapes and books? Or is it simply too easy to get into bad practices? I realize a school/instructor is ideal and will undoubtably go to one when possible, but even then cannot afford to take multiple trips for multiple weeks to various schools.

2) What is the downside to the PMTS? As I understand it the conventional method is easy to learn, but has too many incorrect habits that then need to be "unlearned" to progress beyond the bunny slope. But are there any negatives to PMTS? Harder to learn initially or what? (Besides the obvious of being more difficult to find instructors.) I am not critical at all, but nothing is for free. Inventing the wheel was a great advantage to mankind, but the disadvantage is it allows one ot go faster and thus increases possibilities of accidents! Ha ha  . I am curious as to honest downsides from honest believers.

3) Conspiracy theories aside, since shaped skis are the "now" and future of the sport, why is the industry not more readily embracing a system that will make the use of their products easier and thus sell more? What are the thoughts as it seems to go against the benefits of all the manufacturers and any new skiers which is where the customer base lay in the future. Even the seemingly much reviled PSIA has nothing to lose and everything to gain bymaking it easier for people to learn...More fun =more students=more $ for lessons and equipment. What gives?

4) Not exactly PMTS related, but what are thoughts on helmets?

Last, feel free to pontificate and educate me on anything you might feel useful as I do not know all the questions to ask! And yes, I am devouring this site, but have not found much form "virgins" just the "converted".

I have posted a near duplicate of this on the PMTS forum as well, though I realize many of the members are likely the same.

Thanks!

« Last Edit: December 27, 2007, 07:24:52 am by giorgio »

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trtaylor

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Re: Curious about PMTS...
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2007, 07:13:54 am »
To learn PMTS from the beginning, you should really start with Harald Harb's first book, 'Anyone Can Be An Expert Skier 1'. You should also review the PMTS forum, as there is a wealth of information there.

Can one teach themself to ski just using Harald's materials? Pretty darn well, I think. It does depend on how motivated you are and if you are willing to seek advice from the PMTS forum by submitting video of ones self skiing.

Is there a downside to PMTS? I don't believe there is. Of course, some of the PSIA torch-carriers think there is. I do suppose a valid criticism is the lack of PMTS accredited instructors. But, that is countered by the availability of the camps and Harald's on-line advice.

Tim

rlspalding

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Re: Curious about PMTS...
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2007, 10:28:06 am »
Nice post Giorgio,
You are at least heading in the right direction! A lot of people just keep going to the slope making it down the hill anyway they can. Its nice to see someone who has the self motiviation to try and learn.

I will try to answer as best as possible your questions, although I am just an intermediate skier and just started PMTS myself. Unlike you though, I was fortunate enough to have 2 private lessons with an instructor earlier this year. (please excuse my generalization between PSIA and PMTS instruction..these just come from my experience in private lessons)

1.  It is a huge advantage to pick up "Anyone Can Be an Expert Skier 1 and 2" in addition to the book you have. It is also a huge benefit to be well versed in these books prior to going to a PMTS instructor or camp (at in my opinion). This is because I already had a base knowledge of what the instructor was trying to teach. I read the books before my lessons, but never had time to try anything out, but this was even helpful because I understood the principles behind the method and the instructor didnt have to waste valuable time explaining everything..he only explained any misunderstandings I had.  I agree, you can probably self teach a lot of stuff, but like anything an expert will be able to see if there are any inefficiencies and help you correct (probably at a lot faster pace).  I think of going to camps or private instruction as like a steriod shot for muscle regrowth. They give you a great deal of knowledge and things to practice on your own, then you go work on these. Then when feel that you've gotten to a proficient level you go back for another "shot".

2. Whoa...if you read a lot about PMTS vs PSIA (which I have) this is huge discussion/debate...lol...I hope it doesnt get to that here because most of that discussion is probably over my head.  From my personal experience, the biggest advantage of PMTS is that when you ask "why or how does doing this make my skiing better" (at least my instructor) could explain in exactly why it was better mechanically and kinetically. This is probably because he had a PhD in Biomechanics! If you really want to learn more you should read up more on the PMTS forums because they have a lot more room to talk about the difference between PSIA and PMTS.

The other huge factor for me was the stress that PMTS has on proper equipment.  After going through about 13 private lessons with the wrong boots, it only took my PMTS instructor 1 excercise on the first day to figure out that I was out of alignment. I already knew my boots were probably too big, but it never seemed to bother my PSIA instructors, it definitely disturbed my PMTS instructor. The next day I took a day off from skiing at Vail, to drive to Harald Harb's shop and got fitted for new boots and aligned.  My old boots ended up being 2 whole sizes to big! and I had to get a 2.5 and 3 degree "wedge" on the soles of my boots.  I wasnt sure if I was going to be able to tell the difference...it makes a huge difference! Think of it this way: with improper equipment you can ski and probably learn to ski, but there will be a point wihere it will restrict your learning ability.  Why waste time trying to learn with improper equipment, why not get the proper equipment first then start learning, this will maximize your learning potential with no restrictions (then the only restriction is yourself).  the PMTS camps start off the first thing with alignment sessions for this reason. It is never too early to get proper equipment.

3.  Duh!! you hit the nail on the head.  Even after just 2 lessons I enjoyed PMTS much more then PSIA. I kept telling my instructor I wanted to ski around to all of the other people with "blue jackets" (All vail instructors where blue jackets) that there is something way better then what they were learning!

The only thing I can think of is that PSIA was here first and is "developed" and people are ingrained (spelling?) into that school of thought. So when some one, no matter their background, comes along and says that they found something better. How quickly do you think people (who have been training for 10+ years) want to change? I would equate this to Copernicus when he told everyone that earth was not the center of the solar system. This is kind of what happened to PMTS, which is unfortunate.  But if you look at the people involved in PMTS you will see most of them are PSIA certified and some of them were very high in the PSIA organization...I thnk this also lends to the credibility of the system.

4. I am a firm believer that helmets are a MUST. Although I just bought a helmet this year for the first time because I am a convert.  Unfortunately this disucssion is the exact same as helmets for motorcycles... people want to rebel and dont want other people forcing them to wear helmets..its ok, natural selection will take care of this discussion over time.  The reason I changed beliefs is because even if you are an expert skier, which I definitely am not, you will hit things seen and unseen.  Besides the things you have control over, you do not have control over everyone else on the slopes. Im more afraid of the lack of skiing ability of others than my lack of skilll. This is because I know that I wont do terrrain that is way beyond my ability.  I know people will argue some statistic that helmets would have only prevented 1% or some low percent of all fatalities associated with skiing...but honestly, is it worth taking that 1%...to be honest I can't say Im scared of dying Im more scared of ending up a vegetable and living the rest of my life, cuz that would really suck!

If you want a great helmet (kind of expensive, but way cheaper than brain sugery!) the giro 10 is awesome. Tons of vents, it has an adjustable band in it to make a good fit. You no longer have to have just the right shape to fit into it., and its so light I couldnt even tell I had it on! Plus, you dont have to worry about what type of hat your going to wear. It even has removable ear flaps to keep you warm

georgelichti

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Re: Curious about PMTS...
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2007, 01:35:31 pm »
Whoah! Thanks a lot everyone who replied so far (especially rlspalding -I KNOW that took a lot of time to write). Much appreciated.

For somebody just coming out of the gate, so to speak, it is tough to get info. So much seems to be geared towards somebody else. And a lot of people who can help, either have not got the time or the desire, so to those of you who make the effort to help out a newbie. Thanks A lot.

Oh, and I ordered ACBAES1 from Amazon today.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2007, 02:01:58 am by giorgio »

rlspalding

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Re: Curious about PMTS...
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2007, 10:07:48 pm »
No problem,

If you check out the PMTS forums, there are a ton of helpful people on there. Even Harald Harb replies!

I know when I started, it was a bit overwhelming. Especially with with different people teaching different methods, its very difficult for a new skier to decide which way to go. It usually ends up being what ever is convenient.  To be honest, I still find myself sometimes overwhelmed because of some terminology that I dont understand.  Thats why I joined the realskiers website so I could learn more

RISkier

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Re: Curious about PMTS...
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2008, 07:31:31 am »
I'm not an instructor and I wouldn't put myself in either the PSIA or PMTS camp.  I would say the PMTS presents itself as a systematic approach to learning to ski better while PSIA is more of an organization that presents tools that can presumably be used to teach skiing.  Most ski schools are affiliated with PSIA.  I've been working with PMTS materials and I think the approach is generally sound and the drills are very benificial.  The only downside to the PMTS approach that I potentially see is that I'm not sure it doesn't deny some skills that can be useful in certain situations.  Specifically, I think there are some situations in which rotary movements are useful tools.  A lot of very good bump skiers, for example, advocate the use of rotary movements similar to what one would use when doing pivot slips.  Indeed, pivot slips might be taught as a prerequisite for bump skiing.  I think that PMTS advocates would say I'm wrong and perhaps I just don't understand the nuances of PMTS well enough to understand.  I also have some "political" issues with PMTS.  As an outsider my impression is that PMTS and its followers almost present themselves as a persecuted and misunderstood organization and you either believe in PMTS or your wrong.  I also don't see, and again I may simply be niave, that PMTS is that different than what many folks outside of PSIA are teaching.  For example, Eric and Rob DesLauriea (SP?) seem to present some of the same techniches and drills in their book.  And the approach of Lito Tejada-Flores (whose books and tapes are excellent, IMO) is generally very consistent with PMTS and Harold Harb even demonstrates techniques in at least one of Lito's videos.  All that said, I think Harb's books and videos are excellent instructional tools.

midwif

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Re: Curious about PMTS...
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2008, 12:00:25 pm »
Good day RISKier

Harald Harb has acknowledged the DesLauriers and Lito Tejada-Flores as instructors who teach high-level skiing techniques that are, on a whole, consistent with PMTS.
I think you would agree, that these names are not the ones doing the majority of ski lessons in the USA.
"Play it Sam"

rlspalding

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Re: Curious about PMTS...
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2008, 12:53:06 am »
"I've been working with PMTS materials and I think the approach is generally sound... "

"I also have some "political" issues with PMTS.? As an outsider my impression is that PMTS and its followers almost present themselves as a persecuted and misunderstood organization and you either believe in PMTS or your wrong.? "

Im a newbie PMTS convert(lol). From what I have seen, I would have to disagree with you about your statement "you either believe in PMTS or your wrong"...ironically I find the statement more true of PSIA...

There is no such thing as an "outsider" in PMTS....you might want to make sure that your not an "outsider" because of self-exclusion.

but if you want to question why you do things and why one way is better than the other...then I would highly suggest you check out PMTS as an "insider" instead of an "outsider", by this I mean join the PMTS forum and post your questions about the method...Im not sure what makes someone an "outsider" in the PMTS method being that the forums are open to anyone who wants and generally I find people there extremely helpful when you question their method.  If you have a genuine interest in better skiing technique (not to start a PSIA vs PMTS discussion), then PMTS is a great place to start because they don't mind you questioning their technique. They are genuinely interested in not only making people better skiers, but also making sure each skier understands why certain moves in skiing are better than othes.

jim-ratliff

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Re: Curious about PMTS...
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2008, 02:32:34 pm »
One old guy's opinion.? I have pretty much stopped visiting the PMTS forum, even though I am a BIG believer in the value and approach of PMTS, because it seems to frequently become a very much us versus them battle.? In person, Harald is a very calm and friendly person, but that's not always the person on the forum.

Not that many years back, I was clearly what Lito Tejada-Flores referred to as a "Terminal Intermediate".? A friend recommended his three tapes (and they helped), but from that I found Harald's books.? His first two books were an eye-opening revelation to me.? They not only explained the whys of the movements that he was proposing, but he also explained the reasons behind much of the "other stuff" that I was hearing, and he did it all in a style that was easy for me to comprehend and associate with muscle memory.? I have never had a good PSIA lesson.? The instructor skis away and says "do this" with no explanation of how to do it, what muscles to use, or why we are doing that drill or where it fits in the overall scheme of skiing; and there was never any consistency from one mountain or even from one instructor to another.? I learned more from Harald's books even before I got back on the snow than I ever learned from the 5-6 'ski resort' lessons.? And even more importantly, for someone that is now almost 60 years old, the PMTS way of skiing instantly relieved a lot of the strain on my knees (coupled with shaped skis, of course).

However, I believe the real strength of PMTS is the consistent movement patterms that get you from where you are to parallel carved turns, and it doesn't matter if 'where you are' is a never ever skied before or a 10 year skier that never made it past terminal intermediate and still skid turns and or initiates with a bit of a stem christie.? Once you get to parallel turns and skiing with your feet, I don't believe you need to continue to drink the cool-aid, that you can begin to include other stuff.? Gary Cassara wears a PMTS badge on his shoulder, but he raves about his bumps class with John Clendenin, who is a black certified PMTS instruction but has a different bump technique than what PMTS teaches.? Gary likes John's method much better, but for building a skiing foundation I believe that Gary will always recommend PMTS movements.

The DesLauriers (sp?) have a slightly different all-mountain style, although they too are PMTS certified and what I've seen of their stuff certainly has a similar movement base as PTMS.

I'm not sure about the categorization of insider vs. outsider.? Frequently 'outsider' seems to be someone who is suggesting that at the higher skill levels PMTS isn't any better than XYZ.? That may be true, but I personally don't care because the strength of PMTS is getting you past that 'all too common intermediate plateau' that XYZ may have fostered in those initial movement patterns based on the wedge.? Sometimes the 'insider' seems to be people that agree with Harald, PMTS is the best way for all levels of skiing, but I don't believe that either.

However, I firmly believe that the PMTS approach for anyone not able to ski well is BY-FAR superior to PSIA lessons (which isn't really an approach, it's a tool bag left to the instructor to choose from), and will be much cheaper.? And I believe that the level of skills assessment and review in a Harald Harb camp is far superior to anything I've seen in PSIA classes and is well worth the money, and this is especially true of the green and blue-dark blue camps.

« Last Edit: January 05, 2008, 09:02:40 pm by jim-ratliff »
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rlspalding

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Re: Curious about PMTS...
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2008, 10:45:16 pm »
Im sorry you feel that way, because it is not my perception at all.

Maybe the forums have changed since you last visited?...I think Ive only seen 1 post about PSIA vs. PMTS, and actually harald stops most of those threads fairly quickly.  I tend to see more of the PSIA vs PMTS vs Whatever Else on the generic forums then on the PMTS forums.  Primarily because I think most people at PMTS could care less, all they seem to care about is improving skiing technique and helping each other improve. 

Actually in the last couple of weeks, we've had some awesome discussions on speed control, short radius turns, and stance questions.  The best threads we have are the ones where people are brave enough to post their video of skiing and has everyone analyzing them.  There is no better way to learn than to try your best at analyzing another skier, then having a qualified person do the same analysis so you can see what you picked up on and what you missed. This helps thoroughly when your skiing because then its in your mind what you have to focus on.

The difficult thing for me with other "generic" forums is that you have several schools of thought posting responses about lets say transition. You can't get 1 straight answer and your head often times comes out spinning with all of the responses and the beginner/intermediate who asked the question is left to decide which is the best technique. Is this really the best way for a learning skier?

I have yet to find another skiing forums that has so many posts on technique instead of where people are going skiing and what gear they have. Maybe Im a bit different, but I really dont care where total strangers are going skiing, but I'll read every single post I can find on skiing techniques...which unfortunately sometimes a little sparse on some skiing forums.

Dave T

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Re: Curious about PMTS...
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2008, 11:38:47 pm »
Harald is a great technician and has a great ski instruction approach with PMTS.
BUT Haralds greatest problem is his Austrian ego.

I am expert skier (no not my own ego talking here) but many years on the slopes.? I had a major accident that required me to find an alternative to minimize knee stress, otherwise my skiing days were going to be over.? PMTS is a great approach for teaching skiing.? I discovered through Harbs books and online instruction that I had already been approaching my skiing on modern skis 90% correctly; BUT I really like his simplification of focus and use it ever day on the slopes.  My knees love PMTS.

There is a lot of PSIA/CSIA versus PMTS on the PMTS site but there is also brilliance.? If Harald would ever let his EGO go the PSIA instructors would follow; but the Austrian in him wants to always battle instead of just teach.

Harald Harb is a great instructor and PMTS will take your skiing to another level


Dave in Vancouver
rather be in Whistler
 
« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 07:00:28 am by Dave T »

bf_hill

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Re: Curious about PMTS...
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2008, 04:30:06 am »
Wow.  I have been skiing for 48 years (I'm 53) and hadn't heard of an alternative method.  I took a ski instructor class at Univ. of Vermont in 1975 and don't remember the style, probably PS..whatever.  I'm was looking at the veritable plethora of information on PMTS.  I was just going to start rolling my skiis to see what happened when I got new (not parabolic apparently) skiis.  My current skiis are Olin Mark IIIs 190cm, over 20 yrs old.  I rented a pair of the new skis last season and liked them so I was going to buy new ones (another discussion).  Since I enjoy my skiing now, I wonder what the benefits to learning the PMTS way are for an established skier such as myself.  I guess I'll pop over to the PMTS site and see.  I'm sure someone like me has posted.

cabo79

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Re: Curious about PMTS...
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2008, 04:07:33 pm »
The main reason for teaching the old way, seems to me, pizza pie, is to get small children going down the slopes quickly. It's easy for children to learn. My 8yr old is capable of getting down blues fine. I am now teaching her to ski, there is a little resistance to transition, but not bad. For an adult, I don't see much reason for going through this stage. Get the books and videos and follow the practices as given. And if you can find someone that teaches this way, take a lession now and then. Also get your feet checked, I had to canter my boots a bit to get them close to right. Love that duck tape.

Ron

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Re: Curious about PMTS...
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2008, 02:05:13 pm »
Oh this is such a hot topic!  Ok, I am not a HH groupie but beleive in it's effectiveness and effeciency. That said, it's roots are deeply seeded in Austrian and european race style and I was taught with many of the same drills and such, just not called PMTS. It's a great system and I have benefited from it greatly. I recommend it to anyone. Like Jim, I avoid that forum as well. I just can't get to that level of analysis and such. Downside; yes, like everything else. It's downside is that it only preaches one-method to ski. This is going to be argued but if you aspire to off-piste skiing in technical conditions you have to have a few different skills at the ready. I have been in the trees and needed to snow plow to cut speed where there is no room to turn, Many times, you need to smear turns in powder and cut up conditions to control speed and I just prefer to John Clendenan's method for bumps much better. The only other complaint is that some get too concerned with perfecting movements and forget to lighten up and enjoy thier skiing. Some here have seen me ski, I'm no pro, but I can get down just about anything in decent form. I just enjoy skiing. So my friend, get out there and learn to ski, have fun and don't worry about perfection!

midwif

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Re: Curious about PMTS...
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2008, 03:48:05 pm »
Ron
I was in Haralds group the first 3 days of the camp at Solvista. The first item on the agenda!!!!
Working on the two footed release and BRUSHED CARVE. Specifically to handle terrain where it is steep, narrow, bumpy etc.
Many of the campers had decent carving skills in the more proficient group. It was the more sublte turns we all needed to work on. Short radius turns, brushed turns were the things we worked on first. Quite enlightening. PMTS pun intended. ;D
"Play it Sam"