New Quiver Help

[jim-ratliff]

Jim, I had to go back and re-read your post. I can see where the boot may not beneift certain people but don't you think it could benefit many others?

Just to clarify, wasn't me, was John.

However, I sort of agree with Lynn. I had always assumed it was mostly gimmicky. Seems like many guys walk with their feet pointing out at 40 degrees and they always seem to ride the chairlift with the tips of their skis wide apart, so I assumed that having the boot accomodate that angle was a comfort thing.? Given that, it is pretty amazing to me that they are targeting the racers and not so much the recreational skiers, and that there is enough acceptance of the Fischer SOMA product line that Nordica has also chosen that.

[Ron]

oops!? my bad!? Sorry. Your foot naturally points out. it's a natural posture of the leg. Were you thinking that was because of the boot?

No, didn't think it was because of the boots, I knew that a natural position for many people (but not all) is for the feet to point out, and assumed that the boots were intended to mirror this so as to make the boot feel more comfortable.? My feet naturally point forward and parallel.

[jbotti]

I wouldn't call it a gimmick becuase the abducted stance does increase edging ability for every skier so in theory I can see why Nordica and Fischer like the concept. The real question is whether every skier needs to increse their ability to get to the big toe edge on each ski. Bowlegged skiers already have too much ability to get to the big toe edge as they natuarlly sit with their weight over the little toe edge. The slightest move the the iinside creates pressure on the inside edge which can make things difficult.

Yes, clearly for some, abducted boots could be of benefit. Having said that, I am soneone that could benefit from abducted boots, but my alignment is dialed in perfectly with a traditional boot, so clearly abducted boots aren't necessray.

[Ron]

it gets back to the right boot for each person. Billy Kaplan, my fitter, is huge proponent of building the beds to correct allignment and other issues first, then adjust the boot (after determining the right boot). He shell fits and looks at the relationship of the persons leg and foot to the general shape of the shell and then goes from there factoring in where and how you ski and your posture and body movement patterns. he looks at you when you are flexed, standing straight and other postions.  I think you need to be very careful not to look at all boots the same (not that any of us here do). Race boots are very different like a Porsche 911 is to a BMW X5, both can be high performance but they serve very different needs. That doesn't make either the right car if you can't drive it though!   So, a groomer cruiser boot is different from a back country boot and a race boot altogether, but a race boot for a racer that isn't the right shape (including ramp,flex and volume, for instance) isn't the right boot either. Just my .02

[Gary]

Me personally....I'm from the school of try many boots on that are targeted for your level, your ski skills and the terrain you like to ski.

Some important factors:

The shell should have the same anatomical shape as your foot? (or close to with some grinding)

The flex pattern should be one that allows you to be in a comfortable stance where you work the skis fore and aft with as little movement or as much movement as your ski skills dictate.

Alignment...startin g with the ankle being neutral in the boot...an easy fix with a good footbed but again only if your looking for a change in performace...it may be good for you or may really throw you off.

Knee alignment and tracking...because when we ski, our feet move in parallel with each other no matter how far they angle out when walking or sitting on the chair lift, in my mind, one receives maximum performance if all things in the bodies kinetic chain...from the feet up to the hips are aligned....well at least from my experience. Being able to pressure the outside and inside edges of your feet equally with as little movement as possible I think requires less energy.

Having said all this based on my personal experience...I've skied with many good skiers who "make allowances" for their personal alignment issues and the do it well and they DON"T want to change a thing.

That's why finding a boot that fits you not only physically but mentally as well.

So match your technique and your physical attributes to the way you ski and life will be good. Changing the kinetic chain if you're looking on changing your ski technique works for some but not others....BUT...Upg rading old and worn out boots is the best way to better skiing without a doubt, but matching them up to the MENTAL, PHYSICAL and TECHNICAL skills you are working with is KEY!

Best,
Gary

[jim-ratliff]

I wouldn't call it a gimmick becuase the abducted stance does increase edging ability for every skier so in theory I can see why Nordica and Fischer like the concept. The real question is whether every skier needs to increse their ability to get to the big toe edge on each ski. Bowlegged skiers already have too much ability to get to the big toe edge as they natuarlly sit with their weight over the little toe edge. The slightest move the the iinside creates pressure on the inside edge which can make things difficult.
Yes, clearly for some, abducted boots could be of benefit. Having said that, I am soneone that could benefit from abducted boots, but my alignment is dialed in perfectly with a traditional boot, so clearly abducted boots aren't necessray.

John, I think you said that wrong.? Bow-legged skiers do have their weight over the outside (little toe edge) instead of centered over the ski, but I think they have trouble getting weight/pressure over the big toe edge because they are starting from an unbalanced state?  Their kinetic chain is difficult to get balanced over the center of the ski (and wider skis make this worse)?? I think that's correct?

[Ron]

and... that's why getting the foot bed setup correctly is so important!

[Glenn]

I buy boots based on the color. 

Kidding. I'll know when I have the right boot on. Salomons seem to be the bran the fits me best. For me, I've always knows when I had the right boot on. The fit just felt right. Minor tweaks could be made later, but the overall fit has a certain feel.

[jbotti]

Jim you may be correct on the balance aspect, but a bowlegged skier has to make only the slightest movement with the foot to pressure the inside edge. Conversely, a knock kneed skier has to move the feet an immense amount to begin to engage the inside edge. Clearly none of us will balance well when we have to make large compensations.

[Gary]

Jim because a bow legged skier has so much room to move the ankle and knee without interference to get to the big toe edge it's much easier than the knock kneed skier. With the knock kneed skier, because the knees are so close together just by physical structure, when skier pressures the inside of the boot, the knee can actually hit the other leg preventing limited angles or requiring the skier to make other adjustments to allow the skis to turn.

Rudimentary alignment is a wonderful thing!

G

[jim-ratliff]

Ok, we'll agree to disagree. ?I thought the bow-legged skier was over his outside edge and has trouble getting weight to the inside edge and knock-kneed skier is already over his inside edge and has trouble releasing the inside edge. ?We agree that getting them neutral is very desirable.

[Ron]

why are we discussing this as if the knock-kneed or bowlegged skier has to ski misalligned? No reason that a bed cannot be made and the cuff adjusted to compensate unless the degree of deformaty is significant to the point where the person has to use custom shoes anyway? 

[jbotti]

Jim your observation is correct but the physics is where you are making the mistake. If with my normal uncorrected stance my foot is pronated, my knee and ankle is insde of foot and the ski is flat, my feet ankle and knee are alreday in a position that would engage the ski, but it is not. A knock kneed skier has to go much further than an aligned skier to engage the inside eedge and there are limits to have far inside we can move which ultimatley limits tipping ability and the ability to produce edge angles. All this is reversed for the bowlegged skier. When you cant a a knock kneed skier it is alway raising the inside of the boot pushing the stance outward. The result is that much less movement is required to engage the inside edge.

IMO Harald is the expert on thsi subject and if you re-read his work on alignment in ACBAES 1 I am mimicking his comments on the subject, with significant personal experience being so knock kneed.

[Ron]

this make sense. you are simply filling in under the foot so the leg has less distance to travel. Jus tlike you put blocks on the pedals of little kids bikes when thier legs are too short, same thing.

[Philpug]

Jim your observation is correct but the physics is where you are making the mistake. If with my normal uncorrected stance my foot is pronated, my knee and ankle is insde of foot and the ski is flat, my feet ankle and knee are alreday in a position that would engage the ski, but it is not. A knock kneed skier has to go much further than an aligned skier to engage the inside eedge and there are limits to have far inside we can move which ultimatley limits tipping ability and the ability to produce edge angles. All this is reversed for the bowlegged skier. When you cant a a knock kneed skier it is alway raising the inside of the boot pushing the stance outward. The result is that much less movement is required to engage the inside edge.

IMO Harald is the expert on thsi subject and if you re-read his work on alignment in ACBAES 1 I am mimicking his comments on the subject, with significant personal experience being so knock kneed.

Here in is the difference, you are working for someone else's experience, maybe he is "an" expert, but by no means THE Expert. .? Boot fitting needs to be done in person, not on line.