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Here are some thoughts regarding the trials of being a lurker with a small quiver on this forum.
Ahh, yes several years ago, now this is sounding like a a post from Mike!? Yes, several years ago the 82 was great (BTW- it still is a great ski) but as time marches on,? and new technology a and new materails and as people ski more and different terrain they couldn't ski or couldn't ski well even 5 years ago, news skis emerge that now perform so well and differently, that what seemed fat, like a 82, now are considered "skinny".? A Pilgrim is a great example,? 90 underfoot, but has different flex characteristics softer tip, a stiff underfoot and moderate tail, the result? A ski that rips soft groomers, loves bumps and handles crud very well; a fantastic all mountain soft snow ski (also great for tele and BC use)., all in a? tradtional sandwich construction and standard camber. I digress:? so you want advice?? My advice is to try different skis that work for you. If I had just followed the mass's I wouldn't be on Icelantics today!? Ther is is no perfect ski, there is no ski made for a scecific stlye of skiing that I know of (other than being part of group).? For where you ski, A nice 68-72mm wide ski along with a 84-92mm wide ski should cover it quite well. Powder boards?? I doubt they would be of much use, I think Gary would agree that JJ is not what you want or need. I woudn't even advise a Nomad! (and I'm supposed to!).? Unless you start to spend more time out west, don't bother. But find what makes you have more fun, maybe its a VOlkl AC50 or 30? Uber stiff and burly, maybe its a noodle Rossi , or a head. all great skis. I just bought the Kaslte 78 from Phil.
I keep thinking that the smart way to go about getting a western ski is to buy one that is a year of so old. ?But here is the problem; several years ago Ron had me convinced that my skiing life wouldn't be the same unless I got some IM 82's, ?right as I was ready to pull the trigger, the 78's came out. More maneuverable and a possible classic to be talked about for years. ?I was really considering getting some 78's at 177 and started reading about Icelandic skis. ?Oh, how the folks on this forum made them seem like the most wonderful winter conveyance since wood slats. ?I loved the graphics, the performance in bumps, trees, deep powder. ?I loved everything that I read about them. ?I was ready to pull the trigger on some pilgrims..........b ut wait..........Gary now is making these JJ's seem so cool!!!
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Confusion again ?
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Do I dare ask for help here?!! ?I can't wait to here the helpful advise to come.
So take our advice but learn from your experience what is the right ski for you.? Now that's advice you can trust-? Its like going to the dr, I went through several until I found one that actually knew how to treat me, the rest were not quacks, just not up on thier medicine and new techniques.? ?But I went to them because they were board certified and recommended, just not the right ones for me. (OK, a couple were a little scary ) OK, please buy Icelantic PIlgrims.....
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Male menopause is an old family joke started by my mom when my dad bought a red convertible car on his 55th b'day. Gary and my dad simply wanted a change and went for it. Good on them.
Admittedly, I have difficulty perceiving G on a wide ski. His car license plate is "ski carvr", or something like that. I've skied behind G on 3 different trips, albeit for a couple of days each time. The operative word is behind as he rips big turns. I sure hope to ski pow and off-piste with him in JH, but, in truth, the western trips I've taken in the past 5 years have yet to result in skiing a "dump".
It is somewhat humorous to demo JJ's at Bristol in northern NY, but, if they float his boat........!
Ron, I think G has one of those stay dry devices.
On the subject of big skis and the Epic Ski Community, the below thread is too funny because it was started by Nolo, the owner of Epic and a certified PSIA examiner level instructor.
http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/82069/big-skis-can-t-ski
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I would love to see gary with one of those butt protectors!? I would pay $50.00 to anyone with that picture. I understand the Menopause reference but I don't think adopting new technologies and methods that work better or give a different kind of experience is on par with buying the red porsche. I commend him for not staying in the box, but rather listening to varied opinions and trying it out.? I realize my opinion is not so credible here but he knows how much I was impressed with my HB's and has seen others around him with similar experiences.? Nothing wrong with rippin groomers in one style and skiing pow and such in another, two different types and kind of skiing. right tools for the right job. Good job Gary.? Not sure why the thread is funny? What does PSIA have to do with fat skis? - NOTHING!
Read all of Nolo's comments- they are not about fat skis' they are about people skiing in terrain over thier heads and not having the basic skills. Her comments are more directed at people going into expert terrain looking like experts (whatever that means) thinking fat skis will make them experts- like the ones they see on ski ****- she's right, they won't make you a better skier, but with skills they will make it easier and allow you to access terrain not skiable just a few years ago,? That's a fact not open to debate, ask any resort manager or patroller out west. It's a simple fact.? That's what the pontooner reference is, Pontoon is a 160-140-130 full rocker- reverse camber ski.
NOLO- "that was a good post. In retrospect, I probably am an elitist about people straight-running either downhill or sideways in a beautiful, bountiful, clean field of snow. I want to see elegant S-tracks. I also want to see people able to stop to avoid obstacles (cliffs) and people (me) below them on the run, which I seriously doubt most of these pontooners can do. "
Hers another quote from Nolo responding to another posters agreement about skiers abilities, not skis-
"Have you seen a similar trend at your area--of woefully incompetent (but well-equipped) skiers putting themselves and the ski patrol who may have to rescue them at risk?"
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Perry.....readying your comments about our posts I can see how things can be a bit muddled as we have so much fun trying new gear.
I think it really makes a diference how you ski, what condiitons you're comfortable in and getting a chance to use skis in varied conditions. Forunate for me....I can click into Ron's bindings and visa versa so we always get a chance to demo each others new toys....although Ron buys skis longer cause he's taller and heavier.
For Aspen if the cats are running and the snow is good, we can all put our heads together and figure out what skis would be perfect for you to take up there. Since our clinic is on the 13th and 14th...figured for cat skiing, Friday the 15th might be the perfect day to apply all that was learned in the clinic....that is if the snow conditions are worthy.
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Lynn and Jim....I understand but I just wanted to let all know that there was an opportunity to get some cat skiing in..
It's a must to do all together in the future and then Lynn.....seeing you on some fat boys will be a real treat.
Be nice....
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Ron:
1. You are mistaken when you say that "your opinion is not so credible here." ?I think most everyone recognizes and admires the direction you have taken your skiing the last two years. ?That probably doesn't mean that we want to follow that same path, but it certainly doesn't diminish the validity of your experiences and opinion. ?
2. I assume that Mike's reference to "male menopause" (which I have usually heard referred to as a mid-life crisis if mid-life is now 60 instead of 40) was the suddenness. ?He of the demo-demo-demo mantra (Gary) announces the purchase without demoing and then takes them out on east coast crap. ?And it may well be that Gary has demoed or borrowed others skis that we don't know about. ?But it also hasn't been that long since he was raving about his Icelantic's. ? ?
? (Clearly you and Phil are rubbing off on him).
3. Regarding Nolo's comments, I see something different. ?Are powder board skiers becoming the "bad boys" of skiing in place of the snow boarders and everyone that is a "classic" skier bemoans their lack of style and control?? ? ?Just curious.
4. Separate from these threads, I have heard more than one person saying that skiing has become more dangerouse because there are more people on the slopes skiing at high speeds and 'probably' out of control. ?And, of course, wider boards are often blamed as the reason. ?
5. One guy showed up at the Harb camp on 90mm waisted skis and the instructors had a very difficult time convincing him that he would not get much from the camp constrained by the skis that he brought. They finally loaned him a pari of Super Shpaes (I believe), but it was a challenge to get him to understand that they weren't "bad" skis, just the wrong ski for the situation.
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Lynn and Jim....I understand but I just wanted to let all know that there was an opportunity to get some cat skiing in..
It's a must to do all together in the future and then Lynn.....seeing you on some fat boys will be a real treat.? ?
? ?Be nice....
G
Lynn is bringing her current "fat boys" to Aspen (nooo, not me).? She has a pair of Fischer Muanga's that are 121/84/109, and this gets back to that older thread from Physicsman about how much float a 115 pounder like Lynn gets from an 84 waist as opposed to a 180 pound guy on 100+ waists.? Same ski as last years vision Zeal.
Hopefully we can find some inbounds powder that week. -
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I have to agree with Ron in stating that the JJ is not the ski for everyone....I feel very fortunate that I have the opportunity to be out west skiing 6 weeks this season and for me going wider was just a natural transition.
Thanks for the nice comments Mike .....I have to say that I really felt strong that taking a new ski out west without anytime on it at all would have made my skin break out with nasty nodules....not good. But understanding if the bindings were mounted in the correct position, finding strengths and weaknesses between my skills and the skis abilities ....it was a good day.
Now give me a good packed pow day and I'll lay down some parallel tracks with the JJ's...while wearing my neoprene butt protector.....now won't that be a purrty sight! ?
G -
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Perry:
Pocket Rockets.!!! ?Or whatever the Cat Skiing company is providing!! ?I believe that there is a learning and skill curve on powder skis just as there was on groomed slope skis. ?I had the Head iC 160 that Peter once said "just draws better turns out of you". ?They were a great ski when I first started trying to get better -- as I skied faster the relative softness of the ski became noticeable. ?A softer ski made it easier to practice turns, but the Super Shapes are a better ski for where I think I am now.
Similarly, I think a softer powder ski like the venerable Pocket Rocket is probably better for initial powder experiences and facilitates the learning curve, but as soon as you begin to speed up some you need something less soft, so whatever you might buy is likely to be outgrown in 2 years (or less for some).? Or, if you buy a ski for where you want to be then it' not appropriate for where you are now.
By the way, I'm bringing both my Super Shapes and my Watea 84's to Aspen; you're welcome to try the Watea's one day. ?They have railflex bindings so easy to adjust for your boot length. -
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Hey Jim....I know Lynn will have no problem boot to knee high snow with that ski....Now let's do the Snowatella dance to seed that thought.
What's interesting for me is that I did have a chance to ski Ron's Hellbents on groomed runs and that can be skied there no problem. But...it's not the skis I'd take out on a day like that.
I still have my Icelantic Pilgrims and will still say they are one outstanding ski...carve it, float, bump it...it is a great performer.? What I found was that when I skied deeper snow, or not as steep pitched the Pilgrims made me start thinking maybe more width would be wiser...especially getting off the groomed trails or cat sking....just makes sense.? Watching videos of GOOD skiers working their Rockers through glades and deep pow, I was so impressed with the mechanical interface between skiier and rider and I really liked what I saw.
More time on snow will tell...there's a whole other chapter to be written yet. Keeping in mind my Pilgrims were brought on snow when snow got to boot high and above.....I'm thinking that this is the same criteria I would use the JJ's for only I think I've expanded my terrain versatility with the JJ's.....more on snow time will tell.
There are so many fine products out there....getting the right interface betwen skier, boots and skis is the magic we all seek.
Best,
Gary
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Wow, lots to respond to:
1- Jim, I ski much differently this season alone, not even looking at last season, most of it is due to getting off piste and skiing using some different tactics and going back to some basics like keeping feet stacked and keeping neutral with forward moving plants. It has opened up new terrain and ability to ski much more challenging terrain.
2- Gary still thinks Icelantics are awesome skis but as always, different skis for different terrain and use, the new design of JJ's Rossi S7's and others are a new class of ski. Look for others to follow, That doesn't mean it will replace a ski like a pilgrim.
3- Nolo's comments were not only about the ski, it was about folks looking like they could ski terrain that they really can't. ?Fat skis appeal to many younger riders that watch movies and do ski more aggressive terrain and jib around and such, but remember, a jerk is a jerk, it doens't change when you put a narrow ski underfoot, BTW- most park skis are 80-90mm, so just look at the crowd. ?If you wanted to blame it on a ski, the K2 PE (Public Enemy) would be perfectly named
4- HH camp, if its hardpack then a 90mm ski probably wasn't appropriate, i would use my new 78's. ? But it does depend on the type of ski, the waist is just one measurement of ski performance.
5- Please take the pysics mans calculator and throw it out of the window please! ?It really is no longer valid. There are plenty of big fat skis that are just terrible powder boards! ?Width is just one factor and it's not even the most important really anymore at a certain point
6- PR's are no longer made! ?They went to a 1080 gun about 2 seasons back! Its what i recommended to Ed for his skiing, About 100 underfoot, soft and plush! ?If ?they have Obseths to demo, That's what I would say to try. ?I am hoping you aren't y suggesting he use SS on a ?cat trip?? -
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whoa! too much to respond to in the middle of my clinic. That would make me a scary MD for sure
I wrote the last post for three reasons;
-mostly to laugh at my self
-some to laugh at the antics on the board and the way this hobby makes us all "crazy"
-I knew I would get some valuable info
Will read more carefully and respond later.
Y'all are great. -
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Just dug this up! "carving" on 20/40 Hellbents on boiler plate! I think I could actaully ski these smoother now....
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rlcpics/3466783960/ -
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? I realize my opinion is not so credible here but he knows how much I was impressed with my HB's and has seen others around him with similar experiences.? Nothing wrong with rippin groomers in one style and skiing pow and such in another, two different types and kind of skiing. right tools for the right job. Good job Gary.?
Read all of Nolo's comments- they are not about fat skis' they are about people skiing in terrain over thier heads and not having the basic skills.
Hers another quote from Nolo responding to another posters agreement about skiers abilities, not skis-
"Have you seen a similar trend at your area--of woefully incompetent (but well-equipped) skiers putting themselves and the ski patrol who may have to rescue them at risk?"
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Ron,
FEEL THE LOVE!!
We are in awe of your ski buying ability. Or envious. NOT dismissive.
And HH and Nolo would probably agree about the subect of skiers who have delusions of grandeur. (though it might be hard to get them to see that)
Yes, it is very uncomfortable to see those who "bomb" down the slopes (usually right next to us), going at mach speed.
Without the real ability to control those babies attached to their feet.
Which makes OB skiing more desirous. Which then makes "them" want to do it too!
A vicious circle. Who decides? Who says what skills you must demonstrate to do what trail?
I think that eventually, legal liability will create some artificial rating. Unless the ski resorts are more successful legally. Time will tell.
Sking is an inherently risky sport. Now where have I read or heard that before?
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Ski buying ability? Now that's funny. here's the secret: buy cheap and sell at reasonable prices... Secrets out. I am usually about even or maybe $25-$50 out of hand after I use them and sell. The 4x4's cost me 25. I will strive for something greater to be in awe of?
It has become and issue for sure, in general, the public has become more selfish and less concerned with others; not just in skiing........
Funny thing about OB, I do feel more safe in the trees and than on the groomers. That week before Christmas at the boat can get crazy, I can't imagine skiing there this week. I was talking to a local, he said he takes off skiing all together from the week before through the week after new years; just too crazy and dangerous.
I hope skiing doesn't change it's rules, in some ways it's already too restrictive; and yes, its risky... if it's done right!
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