INDY ski Co's: Better? Maybe not!

[jbotti]

I put this up because it is topical and I know Ron ad Phil may have strong views here. I will also say in advance that some indy ski co's may be doing a super job with quality control, but in my experience most are barely able to get the skis out much less actually have any quality control.

So here is my view. The indy ski co's are doing some interesting innovation. They are willing to try different materials shapes and sizes whch the incumbants won't. Testing with these new materials and shapes and sizes is done by friends and name ski pros associated with the companies. The testing budgets are tiny and the results reflect this. Sometime you get a really good ski and sometimes the experiment isn't that great. My biggest iisue is with quality. My DPS Lots 138's were almost 6 months late and they delammmed on the first day of skiing. When I called them rather than them saying they would immediatley send me a new pair they told me to sand the wood where the skis had delammed and use some epoxy and that should fix the problem. Could you imagine Head, Atomic, Blizzard or Kastle saying that? More improtantly, how often does this happen with Brand Name ski co's. It is very rare. I was told by someone in the know that 40% of the DPS skis that year delammed in the first 5 ski days on them. That is not poor qulity control. it's having no quality control!! What I can also tell you is that the construction vs a Head ski or a Fischer ski was just downright poor. They bases were poorly ground, the sanding of the sidewalls was poor and in general it was a poorly made ski. I will say that thi is the same thing that occured with the PM Gear Lhasa Pows. They were at least 2 months late from promise date. No delamm on this one, but if you looked closely at the ski, the quality was poor. The bases again were very poorlly ground, the edges were of lower quality and in general it looked like a ski made in someone's garage except for the graphics that were beautiful.

As for the way they skied, bot imo had issues wit the materials that supposedly made then so great. From the two skis that I have owned that have used carbon fiber, I will say that the idea that CF makes a ski more troosinally stiff than steel, is a total joke. The Lhass's juts gave way under any kind of torisonal stress. Great in pow, but terrible in crud.

Now I know that others have bought indy skis and your?experience may be very different. My hope is that SkiLogik is building beatifully crafted skis, but Jim can tell us after he gets his. Icelantic seems to be making beautiful skis that are well done (haven't skied one so don't know for sure.

My view is that the innovation is great but better skis are made by the brand name co's that have better quaity control and better factories. Before anyone uses Kastle as an example, let's start by saying that their skis are made in the Head Factory. Enough said!!

[Philpug]

While Kastles ARE made in the HEad Factory, they share no production materials with any head products. They lease space and use their race room for their production. Might as well say a Bugatti is a VW. 

[Ron]

jsut to be clear, Kaslte's are made in leased space in a head factory- nothing about Kastle is from Head; not even the presses. ? Head also had some real QC issues on a couple of thier skis, most noteably the Im82 which had some real delam issues. Gary's SS's also bascially decambered after less than 100 days on them. ?His 82's delamed as well.

Volkl has had mount point marking issues on several skis

Certain K2's were just crap.

and so on,,,,,

So, all that said, Phil isn't as much of an indie fan as I am. I like to support the small biz owner who has a real passion for the sport. I like where many are going and creating new products. they are more customer service focused by far and some are willing to modify their skis like On3p and Ski Logik to mention only a couple who will. ?Some of the indies do have QC problems for sure but for the most part, it's not that wide-spread and you would hear about it on TGR if this was epidemic. BTW- I consider Kaslte to really be an indie. They are not owned by a parent ski compnay (just a motorocycle compnsy) and don't produces thousands of pair so f skis. They really area very small company that has done extreemely well. ?

[jim-ratliff]

There was a common expression back when I was sailing. Boats can be comfortable, fast, or inexpensive. ?You can pick any two of the three, but you can't get all three. ?

I am really impressed with Kastle as a business. They have, I believe, made a decision to build the very best skiers' ski they can, and their market differentiation is the product, not glitzy topsheets or fancy marketing names or change for the sake of change as Head seems to be doing now. And choosing to do that by subcontracting to an existing manufacturer rather than trying to create a production facility makes good business sense (leverage the other companies expertise). ?Quality control isn't the same thing as quality -- Kastle designed the skis with a certain quality in mind and selected the Head production facilities to build that quality in a controlled fashion. ?Head, on the other hand, targets a different price point in the skis and manufacturers that level of quality in a controlled fashion. Neither is bad, just depends on the target market. People buy Toyota's as well as Lexus's even though both have common components (and both recognize the value of name recognition. A Camry has been a Camry for a while, but the ski industry seems like the auto industry of the 60's with name and sheetmetal changes purely for the sake of change)..

One of the things i hope to be true about SkiLogic is that they have a Head price point with a Kastle level of design and are accomplishing that with Chinese labor rates (their ratings across the line are pretty consistently excellent so far). ?I like the fact that they have a layer of rubber in their skis (as does Kastle and Hart, not aware of others). ?I also like the fact that they are bending a single piece of steel for the edges rather than joining multiple pre-bent strips. One of my concerns would be consistency and testing from length to length, but a bigger concern with Ski Logic is getting my pair while they are at a run rate that they can manage -- if they are successful and find they need to double or triple production, then I would be more concerned about them managing that change. ?This precipitated my decision to buy early rather than demo.

John, I don't know the history of the boutique companies you referenced, but it would be very interesting to know if they were initially successful but couldn't "handle" that success?

I am impressed/surprised by the attention to detail. ?They returned two artwork samples showing options for inlaying my name on the skis (and Ron, thanks again for your analysis). ?They name is actually going to be another wood, not ink/paint on top of the standard topsheet. ?How do they do that with any kind of volume. ?On the other hand, I think this probably enhances the quality control likely associated with this pair of skis.

EDIT
Ron/Phil responded while I was typing, so I underestimated the independence of the relationship between Head and Kastle.

[Ron]

Jim, you  have a good connection to the ski and so that makes it even more fun to ski. So that's part of the whole enchilada   The fact that its more personal and specific to you. I totally understand. 

[jim-ratliff]

Jim, you? have a good connection to the ski and so that makes it even more fun to ski. So that's part of the whole enchilada ? The fact that its more personal and specific to you. I totally understand.?

Absolutely!? Unless it turns out that even I think it is a totally crappy ski. But I don't think I will feel that way, at least not until February or March.? ?

Actually, I just fell in lust as all of us do at times.  It was clear to Lynn and her crystal ball two weeks ago.

[Philpug]

Kastle is more a "Premium" than a Boutique.

[jim-ratliff]

From the two skis that I have owned that have used carbon fiber, I will say that the idea that CF makes a ski more trorssoinally stiff than steel, is a total joke.? Enough said!!

I think this is more a function of how the material is used rather than intrinsic truth about the material. But the inability of indy/boutique companies to do the engineering to use Carbon Fiber well may be true.? I have enjoyed my perception of the Carbon Fiber I-beam in the Watea's as giving reasonable torsional stiffness with noticeable physically lightness.

But I also believe the "majors" can do materials research and engineering and spread those costs over a broader range of products, such as the "Liquid Metal" in multiple models of Head skis, racquets, racquetball racquets.

[Ron]

liquid metal is actaully a technology devloped by a small NJ based company that used it in helicopter rotor blades!

[jbotti]

I gree with Phil that Kastle is a boutique company rather than an Indie. Do you really think they would be able to produce what everyone says are incredibly made skis in a garage somwhere? They were smart. They found a high level facility to use and then added their own design and QC.

But again this is my point. Innovation is great. QC and quality production facilities are also important.

As for blindly supporting Indies vs other companies, I beleive in evolution and extinction. If the indies can't get their QC up to reasonable standards they should go out of business. The fact that they don't have to spend marketing dollars and because they sell direct (getting the full price of the ski in pocket vs 50% when sold by the Brand names) helps them a lot. At the end of the day, superior product should drive superior sales.

The truth of the matter is that making skis is a very bad business. I have looked at the financials on all the public ski companies. It's a horrible business. You ship your skis out to retailers in August. They pay you nothing until January and in April they are telling you why the skis didn't sell and that they need further discounts to clear out the inventory so they can buy skis for next year. The ski co's compound the problem by changing the top sheets every year so last years skis automatically sell for a 50% discount vs this years ski, and every retailer puts them on sale in February.

[jim-ratliff]

liquid metal is actaully a technology devloped by a small NJ based company that used it in helicopter rotor blades!

That's very interesting.  "Intelligence Technology" was also developed for use in Helicoptor rotor blades (I think by Boeing) and then adapted for skis by K2 (if you remember the blinking light just in front of the binding).  Head bought patent or usage rights from K2 and has been using it in skis for a long time now.  I think they used it for a while in racquets too.

[jim-ratliff]

The ski co's compound the problem by changing the top sheets every year so last years skis automatically sell for a 50% discount vs this years ski, and every retailer puts them on sale in February.

And then further drive down the real market price by dumping remaining inventory on the web.
And then the proverbial question arises.  How much does it really cost to make a ski?  And who is getting squeezed and bearing the most risk, the manufacturer or the retailer?

[jbotti]

Not sure Jim. One thing is for sure, the only business worse than selling skis is selling lift tickets!! You can do everything right, open new terrain, spend on new lifts, better food, mid mountain lodges, everything to capture market share and then it doesn't snow for half the season and you are totally out of look and money, guaranteed to run at a loss for the season.
Tough business!!

[Ron]

most of the indies like On3p, moment, icelantic, praxis, folsom, etc are producing in small factories or sharing production (like icelantic pressing at Never Summer) most don't produce a large amount and sell out of thier most popular skis early. For instance Icelantic was selling out of the nomads and Moment was out of their Night trains and bibbys. Some have become very good at limiting production to keep prices up.  If they don't produce anything good, they won't last (under the best of situations). I still think many underestimate the impact of them on sales and consumer preferences- hard to argue they are not market influencers to the big guys.

[jim-ratliff]

most of the indies like On3p, moment, icelantic, praxis, folsom, etc are producing in small factories or sharing production (like icelantic pressing at Never Summer) most don't produce a large amount and sell out of thier most popular skis early. For instance Icelantic was selling out of the nomads and Moment was out of their Night trains and bibbys. Some have become very good at limiting production to keep prices up.? If they don't produce anything good, they won't last (under the best of situations). I still think many underestimate the impact of them on sales and consumer preferences- hard to argue they are not market influencers to the big guys.

Without knowing the industry, I would expect that the small guys have to be quick to respond to the market, innovative, agile, and still aware that if they hit on a really good idea one of the big guys will jump all over it at reduced prices (aka rocker skis, although I don't know who gets credit for the idea).
Good for Icelantic on limiting production (and probably maintaining quality because of that decision) to slightly less than demand to maintain pricing and profits.