Technique and Wider Skis

[LivingProof]

At my home mountain, Supershapes are my daily driver and my focus is on developing PMTS movements. I also have an 88 waist ski that is used when skiing in groups or going on trips ? my fun ski so to speak. This week at Killington, had the good luck to ski mostly loose powder on slightly bumped up expert trails using the Kastle 88?s. As the week progressed, it was clear that I was using stemming moves much more frequently, even on moderate blue runs. Even when consciously thinking about making better movements, the stem continued ? very frustrating. The only fix would be to stop and just go back to some very basics, but, it was hard to revert back to movements that are automatic on Supershapes.

While I attribute the deterioration to just freeskiing harder trails and doing whatever needs to be done to make a turn, I wonder if wider skis are just technique robbers. I?m not complaining, freesking in tougher conditions is a good thing and loosens up the lunatic that lives in my brain. It?s a very nice problem to have.

I did get to ski a day with a level 3 instructor at Stowe, some of you know him as Epic who posts on Epic. He offered the advice to move my feet apart just a few more inches and it had a significant positive impact in the higher speed cruising runs we were doing. Getting feedback from a good set of eyes is a good thing, regardless of the school of skiing you believe in.

So to those who ski mostly on narrow waisted skis, do you have similar issues going wider.

[Gary]

Mike, I find whether on carving skis or crud/pow skis (78 and 98 underfoot) the techniques I use are basically the same except....

1)When on my 98 underfoot skiing crud, mash, broken snow, I tip and lift much more aggressively actually pulling the free foot noticieably off the snow and back. This totally commits to the downhill ski and creates strong body angles necessary to carve in these conditions.

2) Especially in these conditions, a good pole plant sets up a confident turn and with that,? I'm always turning my head in the new direction of the next pole plant or the spot I want to make the next turn. This skiing in the future keeps me mentally and physically skiing ahead of my feet.

Finally.....adding in lift, tip, scrape in and pull back of the free foot is a huge tool in turn shape and? speed management...best all mountain crud busting tool I've ever owned. If you master these techniques no matter how bad the snow gets, stemming is not required and even impossible to do.

Hope this helps Mike....G

[jim-ratliff]

Wider skis are technique robbers.!

[SCSA]

I can't recall anyone raving about the SuperShapes before I did. The Skunk had some, but back then, he wasn't raving about them.?

Great skis. But for me, out here at Aspen and Vail, I've moved on.

I love my SkiLogiks. But yes, I also still love my Peak 78's.

My Rave is 92 under foot. I don't need any wider than that, for sure. For me, it's not a technique robber. It's got a 15m turn radius, so the Skunk Movements work great. No rocker, I'm not a rocker -- but I love rock. The Rave's have a layer of carbon and a layer of rubber in them. So I come home less tired because they absorb so much. They remind me of having a carbon bike, as compared to a steel bike. I ride my carbon bike, I'm not near as tired as I would have been on the same ride on my steel frame. I'm less tired, so the next day I'm fresh.

These skis have not had any negative effect on my technique.

xxxxxxxx.........xx xxxxx

 But in the case of SkiLogik, they've changed things.

(portions of the above post have been deleted because it contained negative characterizations or attacks referencing other skiers. P/Heyoka - welcome back, but no negative personal stuff, ok?)

[LivingProof]

SCSA, a unique voice, long unheard.

If I skied Vail and Aspen as home mountains, I doubt the Supershape would be used in the same percentage as on my small east coast mountain. But, I'd be skiing a heck of a lot more and, hopefully, more accomplished.

[jim-ratliff]

NOTE TO ALL:

While this forum is a self-regulated community with few hard rules and minimal moderation, one thing that I feel strongly about is showing respect for your fellow man (skier). I and some other forum members were taken aback by the personal nature of the recent posts. I deleted some of the more derogatory comments and notified the individual that I had done so. He was quite offended, and felt that I was providing unusual protection for Harald Harb. I don't believe that is the case. This is not the PMTS forum, nor is it Epic, it is merely a collection of skiers who have found a safe haven where they can discuss skiing related topics away from the politics found on "other" forums.

However, the individual has chosen to remove himself from the forum.

[Liam]

Someone once told me that right around 98mm -100mm waisted skis is where you'll really notice the technique change, and perhaps some added knee stress.  He speculated that is the width of the average expert boot and once exceed the whole leverage game changed. 

I don't know if that's remotely true, but in my experience, once over 100mm I ski very differently.  On my Nomad SFts (181) I tend to stand a lot more squarely on them, follow the tips around a bit more and I certainly don't tip them over with the same gusto.  And yes, a twist and drift and spin those skis more-but partly because those movements are pretty fun on those skis.

Regardless of ski size-when you chasing folks through the tighter tree runs etc of Killington or Northern Vt most skiers, even extremely talent ones, are going to employ a few more gross motor movements, checks and skids and tail swishes.    And the Supershapes won't make skiing that terrain any easier.

[meput]

A technical skier (Keelty's definition) will notice more difficulty tipping a ski once the width is greater than the boot sole width. As the ski width increases, knee angulation comes into play to tip the ski. My daughter has difficulty with knee pain when she skis on her Peak 78's. No pain with her Supershapes. If you use a pure foot tipping technique (PMTS), technique has to change with a wider ski. If you use more of a knee angulation technique / traditional technique, potentially no change in technique with a wider or narrower ski. The more you are a twister (traditional technique), the wider skis provide a larger platform to rotate on and make turning easier.

[Gary]

Hmmm...hold on there fellow PMTSer.....
I'm a firm believer in soft knees for turns wide or skinny skis...

I feel the knees move into the direction of the turn as a result of the lateral pressure created by the ankle in the boot. My everyday ski is the Kastle MX78 underfoot and I've never have a knee problem with that width. For me using tipping motion with the feet? and good upper body angles gets the job done.
I find when moving to my 98 underfoot and carving with as high edge angle as I can with that board, I feel there is more stress on my body mainly because I'm trying to make a 20 meter turning radius ski turn in 14 meters or less...or anything under the 20 meters. In turns in that 20 meter range and above, it's all about feet and body angles, smooth and sweet...just as if i were on a GS ski. Tip um and let um run...

I just think it's unfair to emphatically state that wider skis are harder on the knees. In fact when skied flat with light tipping angles, I find they are much easier in pow and crud than a narrower ski....less attention required, more stable underfoot.

Fat skis can be twisted, rotated, sideslipped, brushed, drifted just like any skinny skis...yup, I too think fat skis do it easier but you don't have to be? a twister to use good ski technique to achieve high edge angle. At least this is what I've found for me.
Just a thought....have you looked at your daughters knee alignment..sometime s? if they don't track correctly, they get stressed out very quickly.

Just one mans opinion, G

[Svend]

This is an interesting topic, and brings back more than a few comments made to me on our recent trip to the Canadian Rockies with Gary and Alice.? Both he (the ever-observant one) and Alice, as well as my wife and daughters too(!), noticed that I was skiing far BETTER on my wider skis than my narrow carvers.? Exactly what mechanics were at play is a bit lost on me, but all I can relate is what I felt as I was skiing the two different skis.

The narrow skis were the Fischer Progressor 9, 70mm waist, 175 length, dual radius sidecut, but a nominal radius of 16m.? The wider skis were Dynastar Mythic Rider, 88mm wide, 178 length, about a 21 m radius, I think.? The latter are stiffer and heavier than the former.

On the Fischers, I always felt I should do edge changes and transitions in turns in a quick and snappy manner.? First of all because this is so easy to do on such a lively and fast ski, but also because I felt I had to just to keep up to their quickness, and finally because it is so much fun to do.? OTOH, I also noticed that I was doing stem movements quite frequently on these, esp. when tired or in broken snow.? The release of energy from the tail of the skis is pretty forceful, which I like.? However, all-in-all, low points from the judges for good style and technique on these, apparently.?

With the Mythics, being heavier, wider, and with a longer turn radius, I felt as if I had to be far more deliberate and measured in my movements.? I could not snap the skis from edge to edge as quickly, change turn radius as easily in mid-turn, and I had to be more gradual in transitions, letting the skis run flat for a titch longer between turns.? The energy release from these skis is also very smooth -- still lots of power in these, but a much more gradual, buttery smooth release that is very addictive, and is totally different in feel than my Fischers.

I skied the Fischers for the first three days, I think, but on the fourth day after a bit of fresh snowfall overnight, I took the Mythics out.? Within the first hour, nearly all were commenting on how much better I looked on these.? More fluid, better turn completion, better angulation, less jerky movements.? Interesting.......

What I take from this, is that I have to be far more patient and deliberate when I ski my Fischers. Let them take their time coming across the fall line a touch, and running flat just a mo longer before starting the next turn.? Try to make my movements more fluid, smoother, less aggressive and jerky.? This will be a wee bit of challenge, as these babies are so lively and freaky-fast, that it will take some self-restraint not to just let 'em run.  On the technical side, I may try moving the bindings forward another 1cm on the plate to see if I can find a more balanced stance and get a tad more pressure on the tips.  I'll do the BOF-CRS measurement first, though, and see where I'm placed at the moment (I've found this has worked well for me with other skis to find the sweet spot).

Any comments or feedback, anyone, on my observations? I would be most interested to hear some insight into what is going on.

[ToddW]

Svend,

I think you are on the right track.  Even in fast, tight turns there should be an element of patience, of not rushing the turn, of waiting for the skis to hook up and turn for you.  There's a mental drill called target tipping to help with this.  If interested, you can search for it on the pmts forum.

[meput]

Gary,
No intent to imply that wider skis are categorically harder on knees. My comments were intended to vocalize my understanding and physical feedback when I ski on different width skis. How does technique have to change to turn a wider vs narrower ski on a groomed packed powder condition. This is also ignoring flex characteristics, torsional stiffness, etc. Example: my iMonster 78's respond to tipping much more easily than did my Volkl AC 30's (I think they were 74 mm underfoot) which needed more rotational forces (twisting) to turn. I am very sensitive to ski technique and its forces on the knee, being a knee cripple (S/P Lt? knee replacement surgery). My goal is to avoid rotational forces at the knee.

My comments re: knee pain with wider skis are my daughter's observation. It is significant enough for her that she has stopped using her Peak 78's. She has been aligned with canting by Glen Scannell, a HH trained boot fitter. He has skied with her and agrees that the knee pain is related to her technique change to attempt tipping the wider skis.

Glen Scannell made an interesting comment about skiing technique and different skis. He enjoys trying many different skis and trying to figure out what skiing technique allows him to get the greatest performance from any individual pair of skis. Each pair of skis are a puzzle waiting to be figured out.

[Svend]

Svend,

I think you are on the right track.? Even in fast, tight turns there should be an element of patience, of not rushing the turn, of waiting for the skis to hook up and turn for you.? There's a mental drill called target tipping to help with this.? If interested, you can search for it on the pmts forum.

Thanks for the tip, Todd.  I'll check it out.  I have a couple of ski days left this year, when I go back out west for a business trip, and will ski Sunshine Mtn. and (hopefully) Lake Louise again for a few days.  This will give me a chance to try the drill.  I doubt I will take my skis, but will rent some high performance boards that should be a good stand-in.

[LivingProof]

This is an interesting topic, and brings back more than a few comments made to me on our recent trip to the Canadian Rockies with Gary and Alice.? Both he (the ever-observant one) and Alice, as well as my wife and daughters too(!), noticed that I was skiing far BETTER on my wider skis than my narrow carvers.? Exactly what mechanics were at play is a bit lost on me, but all I can relate is what I felt as I was skiing the two different skis.

Sven,

I get very similar feedback from a guy that I ski the with very frequently. My first thought is that my 88's are just my fun skis and I just let go of the precision with which I try to maintain on Supershapes. Just do it, as the Nike ad states. Getting a 88 around in tight situations requires abandoning good technuque...stemmin g and smearing become acceptable. As Gary points out, getting a ski with a GS turning radius to do tighter turns requires something to change. The 88's are longer and heavier so in some respects I just try to not to fight them.

One aspect of skiing the Shapes on my home mountain is that I ski at a controlled moderate pace as I'm thinking about technique improvement. When skiing with others, the pace picks up, I'm sure you've followed Gary down a slope so you know what I am talking about. This season, I've skied more and pushed the Shapes to higher speeds and am trying to be looser. When pushing pace, my lines change and become much straighter, you can ski more upright and just stand over the skis.

It would be interesting to see video of actual skiing on both skis. Anyway I cut it, it's a fun problem to tinker with.

Mike

[Svend]

It would be interesting to see video of actual skiing on both skis. Anyway I cut it, it's a fun problem to tinker with.

Darn right.  It is fun, and those comments made on the hill really made me think about a few things.  Stem turns on the Fischers? Huh? Didn't even notice that. Pulling my inside ski back (Retraction Move....is that the name for it?) on my Mythics? Didn't know I was doing it! Bottom line, it was some of the most helpful bit of feedback I've received all year.  I'll be with Gary at Banff again in a couple of weeks, so will get him to roll some film.  And the fun part about renting performance skis in a place like Banff, is that I can try a different, really great ski, every day.  It'll be interesting to see which ones make me a more fluid skier, vs. which ones I feel I have the most fun on.  Might be two very different outcomes.....