Technique and Wider Skis

[jim-ratliff]

I, for one, believe that tipping wider skis exerts proportionately more leverage on the boot, and that the boot exerts that leverage on the lower leg, and that the lower leg exerts that pressure on the knee. 

Having said that, I will say that I never had any feelings of knee pains while skiing wide skis this year, but my biking has my legs in better shape than in several years.

[Gary]

Hmm...could it be your technique is better too Jimmy?

Meput all sounds good...and glad to hear that your daughter got herself tracking better...a huge plus.

I too avoid knee rotations to turn a ski but have used them in some hairy snow or situations...and yep...you can certainly feel it on the skis. Ski stiffness like going from your Head to your Volkl certainly would give you stronger feedback to the knees.

I think paitience in all turn shapes can be important to saving knees and certainly skis that are not too stiff.

Best, G

[jim-ratliff]

Hmm...could it be your technique is better too Jimmy?

Nawww, it was all the skis.  But when you're always in powder the tipping doesn't require as much leverage. 

Actually, my technique does get a little bit better each year, but I'm still playing ketchup to most of y'all.

[Gary]

Now Jim....I must ask this questions cause inquiring minds ...well inquire..

Does the ski, wide, fat or skinny know it is wide fat or skinng if it's up on it's steel edge, on the rail, turning in it's natural god given designed radius?

There certainly is more (mm) travel distance edge to edge, and as we discussed turning radius may make a ski more challengeing, ski stiffness, and maybe just how much you drank the night before may all influence the amount of energy needed to put those fatties on higher edge angle.

I'm just not sold on the idea that it's just a fact that fatter skis are harder on the knees when put on high edge angle....maybe when I'm older...much much older.....way older....I mean older than pertrifed wood, I mean almost as old as you Jim.?

Now if only we knew someone who could measure exterted loads on the human anatomy..!

One thing that is quite certain, I didn't buy fat skis (to me that means 98 underfoot)? to use as a high edge angle carving tools. Skiing these fatties with softened tipping for crud and pow is the sweetest thing next to....well.....skii ng 2 feet of powder....ha...!?

G

[jim-ratliff]

 ?

It's a fact of physics.? Which makes it easier to pull a BIG nail out of a board, a hammer or a 12" crowbar.? The longer lever exerts more force when you are applying force to the end of the lever.

The width of the ski is also a lever, but in tipping the ski you are fighting against the leverage.? So if you edge 185 pounds off the snow with a lever of 35mm (half of the ski width) that doesn't take nearly as much force as doing the same weight with a 50mm lever.? A given weight at the end of a longer lever creates a lot more torque.? Ask your ankles (or ask mine).? When skiing a wide ski on a firm surface, how much more work do your ankles have to do to tip that ski.

I think those forces get passed up to the knees - and hopefully the knees are well supported by muscles rather than resisting the effort with ligaments.

However, I don't think there are a whole lot of muscles that support "twisting" of the knee so that is much harder on the ligaments.? Aren't most athletic knee injuries the result of quick changes of direction (or side impacts that the knee also was NOT designed to resist).

[HighAngles]

I hate to breakup this debate about the ski width, but I'm surprised no one mentioned the possible cause for the ski technique problem as being attributed to a different mount position and/or binding delta.  I have all my skis "dialed in" for the same deltas and mount positions (in relation to the BoF and effective edge).  It's very possible that the mount position or change in delta on the Kastle MX88 is adversely affecting the OP's skiing when on those larger skis.  I would suggest investigating these issues more closely.

I regularly bounce between 66m, 76mm, 92mm, and 112mm skis.  Anything sub-100mm underfoot feels just fine to me for tipping movements and I don't feel like my skiing degrades in any way other than the expected slowness going from edge-to-edge as the ski gets wider.

[LivingProof]

High Angles,
Welcome to the Real Skiers group and please continue to keep posting. I assume you post on the PMTS forum under the same name, share your real first name as we use actual names in posts quite frequently.

I am the OP of this thread and, very recently did a binding adjustment to move my boots back by about a 1.5 cm on the Kastle 88's. In addition, last week I did some skiing with an instructor (non-PMTS) who had us do some "shuffling feet drills" which convinced me my body position was too far aft. Among my general theories is many ski too far aft or back seat. Part of my proof would be to observe still photo's? of skiers we know that are available on the internet. Fore/aft has been discussed in several threads and my sense is that it changes among the instructional systems. After our little drills last week, I focused on doing a very strong free foot PMTS pullback and that was pretty effective.

I'm off to the Epic Gathering next week to end my season and I've been watching Harald's Performance Free skiing video and making notes about things to work on as I ski. My present thinking is that the issues with an 88 vs a 66 width ski is not as simple as a binding adjustment.

The one thing I am very sure about is as I continue to learn and progress through PMTS, I appreciate that subtle differences change my thinking about individual movements. Perhaps said a different way, overall growth in one part of the system changes the feedback I experience in various parts of the turn. I don't have answers, I have simple insights to how it all comes together in my skiing. Pardon my rambling. The 88's will get a major test starting on Monday with the new video as my bible.

[Gary]

WOW Jim your ankles and mine should do lunch sometime....I just don't feel the strain on my ankles with the bigger boards but HA has a good point...something I've truly believe is critical in great skiing.

The correct mounting point for the individual skier is Key to more responsive and less fatiguing turns.

Best, g

[jim-ratliff]

Not often, but on hard snow days --  probably days when you just pull another set of skis out of the quiver??

Alternately, it may be a technique thing.  My personal trainer is always noting little things that I should work on and improve.
In fact, getting my body down the hill without throwing it down there is one I'm working on.  Challenging to get the feeling of getting the body down the hill but by letting it fall that way (by relaxing from the feet up) rather than pushing my upper body down the hill is tough for me.

[Gary]

Jim I'm certain technique has much to do with how much work the ankles are doing.

I think that working with gravity allows for softer transitions, softer ankles, softer knees.

"Trust in the force Luke"....on a green run when there are few about....try making some large radius turns and just let your upper body move in the direction of the turn ......feel the beauty of flowing down the mountain on the natural arc of the ski....water flowing down the mountain...you are the water Jim....be the water! 

[midwif]

Jim I'm certain technique has much to do with how much work the ankles are doing.

I think that working with gravity allows for softer transitions, softer ankles, softer knees.

"Trust in the force Luke"....on a green run when there are few about....try making some large radius turns and just let your upper body move in the direction of the turn ......feel the beauty of flowing down the mountain on the natural arc of the ski....water flowing down the mountain...you are the water Jim....be the water!?

Gary's been drinking the Ko...., oops, I think Gary's just been drinking again.

L.

[Gary]

Hey Lynn...yup....at the "Zen Bar".....come on in....and bring your boots! 

Let's get this party on!!!!! 

[Gary]

My point zackly Max..!

Hey nicely centered over that uphill ski and great use of that uphill edge as illustrated by the amount of snow coming off the uphill ski....head looking ahead for the next turn...pole plant ready to own the next turn....sweet all mountain skiing... G

PS....Also zackly what Clendenin teaches as well...

[Gary]

Ok...I'm just expressing what I see....the majority of your weight is over your uphill ski with some weight on your downhill ski but the little snow coming from your downhill ski and your hip location tells me you are predominately weighted on the uphill edge...which I think is brillant.

Where the head is facing to me is not an external cue....it's skiing in the future...looking ahead for the next turn...again another principal I adhere to and think is admirable.

And I so agree with that the skis do not dictate the changing of ones ski technique. Good technique is the primary foundation for skiing any pair of skis.

The performance of the skis my change, where you ski them may change, how much of your ski tools you use to ski them may vary but good technique rules.  g

[bushwacka]

At my home mountain, Supershapes are my daily driver and my focus is on developing PMTS movements. I also have an 88 waist ski that is used when skiing in groups or going on trips ? my fun ski so to speak. This week at Killington, had the good luck to ski mostly loose powder on slightly bumped up expert trails using the Kastle 88?s. As the week progressed, it was clear that I was using stemming moves much more frequently, even on moderate blue runs. Even when consciously thinking about making better movements, the stem continued ? very frustrating. The only fix would be to stop and just go back to some very basics, but, it was hard to revert back to movements that are automatic on Supershapes.

While I attribute the deterioration to just freeskiing harder trails and doing whatever needs to be done to make a turn, I wonder if wider skis are just technique robbers. I?m not complaining, freesking in tougher conditions is a good thing and loosens up the lunatic that lives in my brain. It?s a very nice problem to have.

I did get to ski a day with a level 3 instructor at Stowe, some of you know him as Epic who posts on Epic. He offered the advice to move my feet apart just a few more inches and it had a significant positive impact in the higher speed cruising runs we were doing. Getting feedback from a good set of eyes is a good thing, regardless of the school of skiing you believe in.

So to those who ski mostly on narrow waisted skis, do you have similar issues going wider.

your Stemming was mostly being caused by failure to tip/move down the hill effectively and without fear. Which your Mx88 are not doing you any favors on. Not because of the waist size but the stiffness and long sidecut. Tipping and pressuring movements alone on that ski are going to produce large turns even at speed. You need to add some steering in most instances to get that ski to turn quick enough without a stem. At least this is what I saw when I skied with you.

Some solutions are

learning to lead with you new inside knee.
patience releases into a turn
learn to do ground 360s both ways



I never have an issue stemming anywhere unless I want to stem. IE stem steps in tight trees, and edge wedge hop turns. No matter how wide the ski is. I do have issues with tipping on skis wider than 100mm on hardpack snow mostly because it feel as if my knees are being laterally loaded to the point of destruction.