CSIA Turn Phases

[LivingProof]

When I was poking around You-Tube video Liam put up in another thread, I came across the below video by CSIA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lfb_xV2BExk&feature=related

I'm posting more for their unique terminology about three phases of a turn.

Phase 1 - Diminish edge angle
Phase 2 - Establish platform
Phase 3 - Loading and Deflection

Phase 1 is similar to HH's "release the edges concept".
Phase 2 appears similar to HH's "transfer balance" as this phase get the skis on new edges
Phase 3 ditto about HH's "engage" concept

Not saying it's exactly the same, just that the concepts are similar....may even have been used in the distant past under other names. Linking 3 concepts to show development is used many times in education and other fields. For sure, both descriptions need a lot more words around them to fully understand the intent of the "words". Seems much different than PSIA mantra "rotatay, edging and pressure", but, I never study PSIA speak, so that's just a personal opinion.

My understanding, from a L2 CSIA instructor at the Gathering, was CSIA was getting away from extension unweighting, watching the montage, it does not appear so!

[jbotti]

There are some in Canada that are following PMTS. Read the first line of the program description.

http://www.whistlerblackcomb.com/snowschool/adults/camps/seniortech/index.htm

[jim-ratliff]

Thanks, John, that's very interesting.  Do you know how or who has made this happen?

[jbotti]

Yes, Harald has been worikng with a group of Canadian intsructors over the past several years. I think they finally got the go ahead from Whistler to put a PMTS camp in place.

[Svend]

Not sure if any of you knew this, but Harb was a member of the Canadian National Ski Team in the early '70s. 

http://harbskisysems.blogspot.com/2010/12/canadian-ski-team-1971.html

These were the glory years for Canadian racing, and for the women, was the breakthrough into not only competing, but winning World Cup races in Europe.  And this at a time when it was almost unheard of for North Americans to take on the dominant Swiss and Austrians at their own game, and on their own turf.  A few years later, the men followed the example, and started winning too.  The big-name racers from that time are household names in Canada:  Cathy Kreiner, Betsy Clifford, Ken Read, Steve Podborski, Todd Brooker....and many more.

Harb was part of that era, and he doubtless still has many friends and connections in Canada from that time.

[LivingProof]

Not sure if any of you knew this, but Harb was a member of the Canadian National Ski Team in the early '70s. 

The big-name racers from that time are household names in Canada:  Cathy Kreiner, Betsy Clifford, Ken Read, Steve Podborski, Todd Brooker....and many more.

Svend,
You forgot Nancy Greene, Canada's greatest evahh on skis! And probably more of a HH contemporary. And, yes, any who follow HH even a little bit are reminded that he skied at FIS level for Canada, back in the day of skinny skis and slalom poles that were rigid. Among things I admire about HH is his lifetime work in developing ski instruction via coaching and writing. There is precious little written material about ski technique.

I've been a lifetime golfer, son of lifetime golfer who was addicted to reading instructional material,and the genes got passed on. Golf instruction is a mult-billion dollar business so it's the polar opposite of ski instruction. Admittedly, golf instruction can be very confusing when the highest level experts give advice that contradicts peers. But there is a richness of material and I enjoy reading the various viewpoints as often an explanation in different words is meaningful. Golf instruction has made me leery of anyone who states "this is the only way to do things". For sure, no golf instruction is ever developed by committee as PSIA and CSIA almost have to go through to gain acceptance. And how does either retrain 20,000 members?

So, when I read the CSIA's terminology of the three stages, I found it of interest, just a different viewpoint and words. Mentally, I translate all ski instruction back to PMTS for a baseline evaluation. What's missing in the video is the explanation of "how" or "what movements" to do the three phases, and, I would just love to drill down and ask for more detail. I remember Bushwacker quoting PSIA and stating something like "appropriate edging". Gee, what's appropriate? I did not find the skiing to be particularly great, but, I do believe the intended audience is more of the everyday recreational skier in a effort to get them into classes.

A hypothesis is that very few are willing to make the commitment to full PMTS, perhaps just as few golfers are willing or able to make a major swing change. The original "lift and tip", weight on one ski PMTS concept still has a lot of value to the recreational skier. Simple does work, and, that's an aspect of that video I liked.

So pardon the ramblings of a technique-holic, I, too, am growing weary of the theoretical, I need to get on skis.

[jim-ratliff]

Living Proof:

So did I just "sort of" hear you say that different golf pros have dramatically different views on various aspects of golf and what body movements make the foundation of a good swing or a good shot?

Hmmmm.

Do their disagreements get heated at times?  Do golfers buy new equipment as often as skiers?  Hmmmm!!

Should we add a golf section in addition to biking?

[LivingProof]

Living Proof:


So did I just "sort of" hear you say that different golf pros have dramatically different views on various aspects of golf and what body movements make the foundation of a good swing or a good shot?

Jim, yes.......although 99.999% will agree that all your weight should be on the foot facing the target at impact. None of this two footed stuff!


Hmmmm.


Do their disagreements get heated at times?

Nevarhhhh!   But I will not argue with Butch Harmon!


 Do golfers buy new equipment as often as skiers?  Hmmmm!!

Yup, and most never get better.   Having said that, I did demo a Ping 5 wood yesterday and .......Hmmmmm.


Should we add a golf section in addition to biking?

No, never!!!!

[Svend]

Svend,
You forgot Nancy Greene, Canada's greatest evahh on skis! And probably more of a HH contemporary.

Doh! Of course.  How could I forget? BTW, Nancy now owns a fantastic ski resort in the interior of British Columbia called Sun Peaks.  It's a few hundred kilometers east of Whistler, in a dry belt.  Hence, they get tons of light dry snow of the Utah powder species.  I have never been there, but want to go soon.  A friend skis there every year, and loves it.

For anyone interested, Ken Read's book "White Circus" describes what it was like for North American skiers to break into the European-dominated World Cup scene in the '70s.  The road blocks thrown up by everyone from the officials, European teams, and even the ski manufacturers, were enormous.  Basically, until they started doing well, they had to make do with hand-me-down used skis and other gear from friendly and empathetic European racers.  It wasn't until Read won at Val d'Isere, and at the Hammenkamm, becoming the first non-European to do so, that North Americans were taken seriously and started getting respect and support.  Fascinating book, and very insightful. 

As an aside, he talks about the complete absence of ski racing on North American television at the time.  This changed when ABC's Wide World of Sports took up the broadcasting, and that really boosted the profile of the sport here.  Later came actual FIS races on this continent -- something which had never been done off of the European continent.

As for golf....well, I can't comment much as I don't partake in the sport.  But knowing a few avid players, I would say that they buy as much of the "latest and greatest" technology as any ski nut.

[jim-ratliff]

Interesting nuance. When hitting a baseball, you want your weight shifting from rear foot to front, but almost all your weight still on the rear foot at impact, and front foot taking all the weight immediately after impact.  The idea is that as soon as your front foot starts bearing weight, you start slowing your forward momentum. (and, obviously, the goal of the pitcher is to disrupt this balancing act; they want you hitting off your front foot, hitting with your arms/wrists instead of the whole body).

[HeluvaSkier]

CSIA has used the three-phase turn for years. The contrast you will find is that is describes a result as opposed to how to do it - it illustrates the result of a turn instead of describing the movements that create it.

[LivingProof]

CSIA has used the three-phase turn for years. The contrast you will find is that is describes a result as opposed to how to do it - it illustrates the result of a turn instead of describing the movements that create it.

HelluvaSkier,
Thanks for the first post and I hope you continue to join in.

I remember having that exact conversation with you a couple of years ago on the day we first met at Greek Peak. I stated above in this thread, I'd love to drill down and ask questions about how to do it. How would they explain the mechanics and not the results?

I continue to hear PMTS is "flawed", and I understand others will disagree with the specific movements, but, as a system it's far less "flawed" than than the mumbo-jumbo used by many to explain their skiing.

Again, welcome to the forum. Gary and friends plan to be in Holimount in January, I hope to join them, so, perhaps we can make some turns.

[HeluvaSkier]

Let me know when you're at HM. I'd love to make some turns with you guys again. I'm usually only down on weekends, but will sign anyone in who wants to ski there on the weekend.

[ToddW]

HeluvaSkier,

Welcome.  It's good to see you here.  Hope you stick around.

Todd

[Gary]

The trip to Holiday Valley is Jan 29,30 and 31st..

Helluva, as I mentioned to Mike, come up to Rochester Friday night...we'll ski Bristol Saturday and drive to HV with the other guys. We have plenty of room for both you guys.

The more skiing the better.

G