V-Hull

[jim-ratliff]

If they are holding their skis on their edges, then it doesn't make any difference whether they are at 10 degrees to the snow or 60 degrees.  You are still supporting your weight (plus other forces) on a longer lever.  I don't ski anywhere near the "high angles" you define, but I can feel wider skis (initially, more in my ankles than the knees). What I agree with is that if you do have those higher angles, then you have a lot of centripetal force in addition to your weight, and the forces are therefore higher.
The quads (or some other leg muscles) are what stabilize the knee, and what is holding the knee in column against the sideways leverage on the knee.
The quads may be strong enough to handle the combined forces on a 68 -- but doing the same on the 88 is much more force. And, by the way, the lever arm may be more from the ball of the foot (rather than the center of the ski) and the edge, in which case the 88 may be 300% greater than the 66. I don't really know the bio-mechanics. Just my opinion, I'm not a medical guy.

Comparing feelings is meaningless unless we are talking about the same thing.

I agree that you need to be talking apples and apples to make a comparison -- my point is that there is a lot more to that than the edge angle and that you were focusing on the wrong thing.  Someone skiing GS turns at mach schnell will see just as much or more force difference at much lower edge angles than you will skiing your definition of high angle turns at 1/2 that speed.
At 62 years old, I can feel the force difference skiing MY definition of high angle turns, and my hip is a LOT more than 12" off the snow (    often as high as 18-20).

[LivingProof]

I must have good knees...I know I feel it when I'm trying to hold high edge angles with 98 underfoot...but 78...not so much.

Depends on your definition of high edge angles. How close to the snow are your hips. Where is your fore/aft balance?

All I know is what my body tells me, but, here's my take.

The position that aggravates pain in my knees is trying to obtain a more "counter-balanced" position, as PMTS describes that movement, using my 88 mm skis. The prime lever for tipping is the knee joint which does not flex side to side. The stance leg knee absorbs a lot of bending and twisting stress, especially on hard eastern surfaces. I also think my 88's are stiffer and that multiplies the strain.

Honestly, at my age, I will never get my hips very close to the ground as flexibility at the waist is very limited. There is the classic picture of Harald in Expert Skier 2 where he sits with his side against a wall and his legs are close to 90 degrees from his trunk. This position is seen all the time in World Cup racers. I can't get anywhere close to that amount of side bending and at the end of a day, my sides feel the stress from stretching side muscles.

No doubt that in these 2 specific areas, I'm probably trying to ski "in the style" of PMTS, but, if I were in class, I'd be called out to "tip, tip and tip some more".

[Gary]

Hmmmm....high edge angle and the hips....

Now for me...In my mind and photo's taken...I can create ski angles where you can read the bottom of the skis doing slow drills....."cause I'm special"....ha  My hips were not 12" off the ground during those drills. Of course "high" maybe only relative to that degree of skiing those turns in those conditions at those speeds and not necessary to describe the actual degree of fixed edge angle. I am also a very centered skier meaning I don't use a lot of upper body movement to engage my tips...shin pressure and tipping seem to do the trick. I am for sure more agressive on hard now than soft snow.

Max...I remember doing the "banana" drill with Harold, skiing across the fall line leaving a single track...his ski carried a high edge angle to do so...his hips were not 12" above the ground. I've also skied one ski length behind him rippin turns and his butt wasn't 12" off the ground yet his ski edge angles where tipped up pretty darn high.   Honestly, I think edge angle is the ability to maximize the steel edge of the ski efficiently enough to create the necessary turn shape based on the snow condtions and speed we ski in.I know it's more complicated than that...but that's all I could come up with in this momment.

As to butt closeness to mother earth....
I have however had the hips closer to the ground making long sweeping turns on steep terrain, legs extended long and skis at high edge angle....which yes...is varying depending on where I am in the turn. Sweet fun.....For two years I skied on carving skis, Harts 99mm, with no poles just working on being able to hang myself out there as far and as long as possible and bit it good a couple of times. A great experience indeed.

Touchy feely....
Now, the sensation I experience is as if both skis are locked into rails, the body counter is fighting the will of gravity to push me down, pulling hard on the free foot to keep it under me, then the moment the pole plant is touched, the edge is released the float and transition when my body moves down the mountain with no thought to my feet following, the total feeling of exhiliaration.

I use none of that skiing pow where soft low edge angles, skiing much more on the bottom of the skis and not the edges... seem to be just right...don't need to drive the shovels  any more. Much more relaxed body...... and now I feel at peace, floating, nothing hard or held...total awsomeness! oh yea....

Mike, holding high edge angle turns for sure can be stressful on knees if they're sore ones to begin with. Knowing yourself and what ski best suits your physical strengths and weakness is important. Also know what kind of turn and the use of what degree of edge angle as opposed to more brushed or drifted turns is the most effective way of sustaining your longevity on skis.

[jim-ratliff]

Jim, Some people feel discomfort with the increased width at low edge angles. But for others it takes a higher edge angle and skiing for a longer period of time to feel it.
...
... Increasing the edge angle with tipping as the turn builds takes a much higher level of effort.

I absolutely agree.  People with weak legs that try to tip to turn will feel the difference almost immediately, I would think.
People in better shape and with stronger legs will take more hours on the ski and/or skiing at faster speeds to notice the difference.


But I do notice it in the pressure of my ankles against the inside of the boot almost immediately.

[Gary]

Hey Jim I'm not your boot fitter but something struck me when you mentioned ankles. In the past when fitting my boots, if I had any pressure point on the front or sides of the ankle, specifically ankle bone area, I found that part of my ankle was not set properly into that portion of the boot the factory designed.

What I had to do was at the most heat and punch out (by others) or sand or drummel that area out so that the pressure was felt equally along the medial and lateral sides of the boot rather than just on the ankle bone. In my experience, being able to leverage the skis edge with pressure distributed equally along the lateral and medial sides increases stability.

Feel the pressure evenly from the ankle to to top of boot (inside and outside edges of lower leg) and you'll find great power and leverage.

Are ya feeling it Jimbo?

G

[jim-ratliff]

Gary:  I may double check this winter, but don't think its a fit issue.  It's only when I'm on the wider waisted skis (101 mm) and only on the 2-3 days when the groomed was pretty firm and I was really concentrating on articulating the ankle in the boot to edge.  By the end of the day, I could also feel it higher on the leg at the cuff of the boot.
As Helluva (and everyone else) says, an all-mountain ski is a collection of compromises. Some (such as reduced weight schlepping on the airplane) make it worthwhile.

[Gary]

Jim...it really might be worth checking and here's why..

I think the wider ski is imparting more torque and if the upper cuff is loose or not simpatico with the upper leg, than you will "feel" sore or pressure points or hot spots.

For even as much as an ankle articulates in the boot, I'd rather think of it at least for my boot fitting, the ankle bones tip and push against the shell to contine the movement chain of events to turn the skis. If there's much movement around the ankle, you would be ankle sore fairly quicly. If you feel the pressure further up the leg, than I think somewhere the pressue may not be evenly spread along that side of the leg.

It's definetly a feel thing....keep those ankles snug and the upper cuff snugger, (ha)....has paid big benefits back to me.

Give ur another look Jim....start with the liner out and your' footbed in the shell and see how and where the ankles line up with the shape of the shells ankle pocket and upper cuff. With boots buckled (liners out) get in your ski stance, looking straight ahead and have someone check to see that your upper leg is centered in the shell.

Take pictures...oh yeah....then you could get all here to post their thoughts....I like it...An online analysis..how cool!

[jim-ratliff]

OK, will give it a look.
I have a little bone below of and in front of my ankle.  Had both boots pushed out just a bit to accomodate that and the hot spot went away, so pretty sure that the ankle is in the right place.
But I might not have the cuff and top buckle tight enough.

[Gary]

Well alrighty then...we're going to be dealing with "absolutes" Jim....only the best for you!

[HighAngles]

I thought I'd pass along some of my personal observations on ski width and knee stress from last season.

I found that my knees (and ankles to a degree) felt a lot of stress when putting any ski over 100mm wide on edge IF I was tipping incorrectly.  If the way you tip your skis on edge involves throwing both your knees from side to side then you're probably going to feel some serious joint stress in your legs.  If you tip the PMTS way, where the free foot has little to no weight on the ski and the stance ski follows into a tipping angle governed by the tipping of the free ski, you should find greatly reduced stress to possibly no stress at all.  When you tip the PMTS way, you maintain correct skeletal stacking through your stance leg.  This skeletal stacking does not have the tons of knee angulation you'll see in most advanced non-PMTS skiers' skiing.   I learned last season that I thought I was tipping correctly, but clearly was not once I hit PMTS camp.

Wide skis actually provide a ton of bio feedback on your tipping skills - if you're not doing it right you're going to be feeling the stress immediately.

[HeluvaSkier]

I get knee pain from anything over 80mm when I'm on hard snow, regardless of how I tip. Soft snow is a different story... reduces the moment.

[HeluvaSkier]

I agree with with Heluvaskier and HH has said the same thing. Maybe if you are younger or lucky you don't feel it, but the extra stress is there.

Crap. Am I old now? 

[jim-ratliff]

I agree with with Heluvaskier and HH has said the same thing. Maybe if you are younger or lucky you don't feel it, but the extra stress is there.

Crap. Am I old now? 

Naww. IMO, as long as u can generate those kind of forces and angles then you aren't old, no matter what your age.

of course, if you were really knock kneed then the wide skis would be less of a problem.

[jim-ratliff]

I found that my knees (and ankles to a degree) felt a lot of stress when putting any ski over 100mm wide on edge IF I was tipping incorrectly.  If the way you tip your skis on edge involves throwing both your knees from side to side then you're probably going to feel some serious joint stress in your legs.  If you tip the PMTS way, where the free foot has little to no weight on the ski and the stance ski follows into a tipping angle governed by the tipping of the free ski, you should find greatly reduced stress to possibly no stress at all.  When you tip the PMTS way, you maintain correct skeletal stacking through your stance leg.  This skeletal stacking does not have the tons of knee angulation you'll see in most advanced non-PMTS skiers' skiing.   I learned last season that I thought I was tipping correctly, but clearly was not once I hit PMTS camp.
 
Wide skis actually provide a ton of bio feedback on your tipping skills - if you're not doing it right you're going to be feeling the stress immediately.

High Angles:
I agree that there is a ton of feedback from the extra resistance of wide skis being tipped, and maybe even some good muscle development, but I also agree with Max and JBotti about effect on my technique. When I go back to my narrow waisted skis I can feel (and Coach Lynn can see) that my actual technique has slipped.

[HeluvaSkier]

I can't believe I'm about to quote Bushwacker... he often says about bumps: "It's not that you can't ski bumps; it's that you can't ski and bumps prove it."

I feel the same way about tipping a wide ski: "It's not that you can't tip a wide ski; it's that you can't tip  your feet and wide skis prove it."

Tipping a wide ski takes extra effort because the edge is further away from your foot. It also requires better balance for the same reason. The reason it is hard on the knees is because with the edge so far from your foot it creates a huge amount of torque on your knees because the resultant force vector during a turn no longer runs parallel with your leg [also the reason it is so hard to tip and balance].

Enough with the physics lesson. A strong skier can move between skinny and wide skis without skipping a beat [usually] as long as they are attentive to not get lazy with tipping [etc.]. A less skilled skier won't have a choice and will therefore revert to old habits in order to get the skis to turn. Many feel that this is no big deal; some even view it as one of the benefits of fat skis. I'm not here to debate that since you all know where my preferences on technique lie, and what I feel builds an overall stronger skier.