A Real Welcome for Beastieboy

[LivingProof]

BB or John,

You'll be called both. Welcome to Real Skiers, and, you win the first to sign up in our new member drive. Liam has told us many times of the adventures he experiences skiing with his buds, so, I'd look forward to making some turns and skiing behind you.

Feel free to jump in on any subject, there are no wrong answers, although Bushwacker may disagree. In fairness, others are willing to set all straight, but, hey, responses and opinions are just words. On extremely rare occasions, I've admitted I'm wrong.

LP's alter ego is Mike and I live outside of Philly and ski in the Pocono region at Blue Mountain. I'm a member of the "it's the archer, not the arrow" club, so, I can be anal about technique, proper PMTS technique that is. But, I'm learning to ski, and like, wider skis.

So, all, give BB a welcome.

[Liam]

Some of you might be surprised to hear that when Beatie Boy was looking for help with technique last season, I gave him a h]Harald Harb book.  I'll drink the Kool Aid, just sometimes I like hawaiian punch as well.

[Liam]

Didn't say I mixed..I said, sometimes, I like one or the other. 


Needless to say, Beastie Boy has a rare copy of Expert 2-the book and video (the best of the Harb Books), which I encouraged him to utilize for technique improvement. He already gets plenty of training in other necessary ski skills required to handle the hardest conditions and terrain of New England (in that respect, Bushwhacka is 100% correct--it takes a few other enhanced skills to ski it well).

If he like it, I'll pass along my Clendenin book next.

[meput]

Hi BB,

Welcome to this little corner of the skiing world. Sometimes on topic, other times drifting. Sometimes knowledgable, other times BS'ing. Always from the heart, with a little bit of heartless thrown in.

From Maine!?!  Which mountain?  Sugarloaf was the mountain I grew up on and now call home after my 35 yr vacation from skiing.

Welcome to the fray.

meput / Jim 2

PS
Are you related to the other BB ( ) of skiing infamy?

[beastieboy]

Thanks for the posts.

I grew up nearer to Sunday River - about 30 minutes away - and started skiing there in '65.  My parents were well ahead of their time in picking up skiing.  In '72 and '73 they got bored and we skied at Sugarloaf for a couple of seasons.  Back when I was a kid, neither of the two hills was anywhere as developed as it is today.  Sunday river had pretty much 3 teebars.  A lower Cascade / Punch teebar, and an upper Cascades / Punch teebar (that you could access the snowfields, Lazy River etc) from.  There was also a beginner teebar.  Their logo was a viking hat.  Since I don't know who the other BB is, I'm guessing that we're not related - but stranger things have happened. 

In high school I realized I was a lot better XC racer than downhill racer, so I raced XC through high school an college.  I didn't do a lot of downhill for a few years in my 20's and picked it up again in a bigger way when the kids got to a good age.  Most  of them (the kids) and kick my butt now. 

I'm assuming that Bushwacka is the same person that goes by a similar name over on Epic.  He sounds like a heck of a skier and Mt Biker as well.  I'd be happy to have him disagree with me - he'd probably be right.

Liam - I was looking at your copy of Expert Skier just yesterday feeling guilty about keeping it over the summer.  I have watched video while on airplanes several times, and mostly used the book for cross referencing.  Let me know if you want me to bring it to the refresher or to the MTB trail opening at the Warfield.  Has a date been set yet?  Harb has some great points.  I like to keep my bag of tricks as big as possible.

Thanks for the welcome!

[Gary]

Boo Max....

I'm a classic example of mixing Harb and Clendenin ....there's a lot of cross over and some significant differences.

The results for me and others has been fantastic...I mix!

But hey...just more tools to use...g

[Liam]

Didn't say I mixed..I said, sometimes, I like one or the other. 

Highly unlikely.

C'mon, Max give it a rest already.  There must be some time when your off the clock. 

[jbotti]

Hey we all want it to be fun here, but a little reality check is a good thing as well. Max is a blue level intsructor in PMTS and both of us have seen many people that think they are using PMTS movements when in reality they aren't very close. I know how many hours of drill work it has taken me to ski correct PMTS movements even on blue groomers. Whatever I have done Max has done 2X in drill time that I have done. I can also tell you every time I ski a section of slope where I start twisting the skis to get them to turn, I set myself back from the progress I am trying to make initiating all turns with tipping movements. So yes it is possible that someone can mix and match the two movements, but whoever that is would be the the first. To ski PMTS correctly takes a singular focus to always tip first to initiate every turn. Most people that don't work with trained PMTS coaches are usually tipping around 20-30% of what is required to ski well and correctly.

Now I know it's a flawed system (BW no need to remind me) but it is the one I have chosen to pursue. But the idea that someone can read the books and watch the videos and practice a little and incorporate some of the better conceopts from PMTS into their skiing sounds great, it just isn't reality. It takes everyone some serious drill time usually with a coach who will amke sure that you are doing the drills correctly. Max and I back that up with years of watching people say they do this and then when we see them ski, they think they are tipping but aren't or are hardly and they think they are flexing but aren't very much and so on.

There are just too many movements that are incompatible with quality PMTS skiing and the bulk either come naturally or are taught in traditional ski instruction. Either you work drills non stop to rid yourself of these movements or you have them as part of your skiing. There really is no mixing and matching.

Let me also state that none of this is a value judgement. You can a be a solid skiier using non PMTS movements. Just don't tell us that it's PMTS skiing.

[Liam]

Hey we all want it to be fun here, but a little reality check is a good thing as well. Max is a blue level intsructor in PMTS and both of us have seen many people that think they are using PMTS movements when in reality they aren't very close. I know how many hours of drill work it has taken me to ski correct PMTS movements even on blue groomers. Whatever I have done Max has done 2X in drill time that I have done. I can also tell you every time I ski a section of slope where I start twisting the skis to get them to turn, I set myself back from the progress I am trying to make initiating all turns with tipping movements. So yes it is possible that someone can mix and match the two movements, but whoever that is would be the the first. To ski PMTS correctly takes a singular focus to always tip first to initiate every turn. Most people that don't work with trained PMTS coaches are usually tipping around 20-30% of what is required to ski well and correctly.

Now I know it's a flawed system (BW no need to remind me) but it is the one I have chosen to pursue. But the idea that someone can read the books and watch the videos and practice a little and incorporate some of the better conceopts from PMTS into their skiing sounds great, it just isn't reality. It takes everyone some serious drill time usually with a coach who will amke sure that you are doing the drills correctly. Max and I back that up with years of watching people say they do this and then when we see them ski, they think they are tipping but aren't or are hardly and they think they are flexing but aren't very much and so on.

There are just too many movements that are incompatible with quality PMTS skiing and the bulk either come naturally or are taught in traditional ski instruction. Either you work drills non stop to rid yourself of these movements or you have them as part of your skiing. There really is no mixing and matching.

Let me also state that none of this is a value judgement. You can a be a solid skiier using non PMTS movements. Just don't tell us that it's PMTS skiing.

Aye Ya Yi! Did this really required this much exposition?!?  It's like talking to religious fundamentalists.   I have never claimed to be a PMTS skier, or aspire to be.  I have also never called it 'flawed.'.  Never.  I like Harald's stuff, some of it helped my skiing, so much so I've shared it with other aspiring expert skiers (like my buddy Beastie Boy!).  But I like other things I've learned and put into practice as well.  I neither know nor care if the movements I use, or that anyone uses will pass the muster with PMTS cyber-Sanhedrin.

Sorry, but any skier can take what they need from any instructor, including Harb, and work it into their skiing.  They'll make the judgement call over what works for them and what doesn't.   And, then, if they're smart, they'll move on. 

Beastie Boy--I'm sorry I dragged you into this hornet's nest.  I know you'll find this amusingly weird: But there are people out there who will fight tooth and claw across cyber-space over the nuances of ski technique.  Seriously, the above allusion is fairly accurate, there is an almost religious zealotry to these endless debates over ski technique.  You'd think Harb was actually involved in doing something important or meaningful, and not just peddling ski lessons. 





   

[ToddW]

You'd think Harb was actually involved in doing something important or meaningful, and not just peddling ski lessons.   

Thing is, what he's peddling doesn't mix very well with other instructors' wares.  It's like oil and water.  Mixing a wee bit of his stuff in usually helps some.  Trying to take the next step is where it often fails.  Skiers are often better off to stick with one approach or the other.

I was skimming Mark Elling's All-Mountain Skier again this afternoon.  The first pages of chapter 2 are a treatise on how foot and leg steering -- steering of the twisting sort -- are the foundation of expert skiing.  Elling is a well-respected PSIA instructor and bootfitter.  He makes a point of how important it is to twist the skis when they are nearly flat to initiate expert turns.  That's oil.  Now Harald, on the other hand, goes to great lengths to eradicate the slightest amount of twisting as skis go through flat.  That's water.  It's hard to mix a bit of "twist now!" with "twisting ... perish the thought." 

I'm not passing judgment on either instructor's skiing.  Elling's book has a few impressive still shots of him skiing.  Watching Harald ski in person is awe-inspiring.  But what these guys are doing to achieve those turns is quite different.
 
To my way of thinking, Harb is doing something important and meaningful.  But I'm admittedly biased because I'm one of his successes.  I'd spent $$ on ordinary lessons with only modest gains until I discovered his books, got aligned, etc.  5 camps (plus short turn and Hintertux camps this season) and 9 days of private lessons cost a lot of wampum, a measure of how important I think his wares are.  But I could be crazy or stupid in this regard.  (Both of my brothers would agree if you called me stupid or crazy, so you'd be in good company  )

[HeluvaSkier]

Now I know it's a flawed system...

It's not. He who thinks it is flawed has much to learn.

The rest was spot on though. 

[jim-ratliff]

Thanks for the posts.

In high school I realized I was a lot better XC racer than downhill racer, so I raced XC through high school an college.  I didn't do a lot of downhill for a few years in my 20's and picked it up again in a bigger way when the kids got to a good age.  Most  of them (the kids) and kick my butt now. 

I'm assuming that Bushwacka is the same person that goes by a similar name over on Epic.  He sounds like a heck of a skier and Mt Biker as well.  I'd be happy to have him disagree with me - he'd probably be right.

Liam - I was looking at your copy of Expert Skier just yesterday feeling guilty about keeping it over the summer.  I have watched video while on airplanes several times, and mostly used the book for cross referencing.  Let me know if you want me to bring it to the refresher or to the MTB trail opening at the Warfield.  Has a date been set yet?  Harb has some great points.  I like to keep my bag of tricks as big as possible.

Thanks for the welcome!

BeastieBoy (John).  Welcome.  What's the story behind the name, if you don't mind.  XC racing?? I always assumed that was a pretty aerobic activity, never had the guts (or lungs) to try it.

And congratulations, the post dedicated to you has some legs.  This is pretty normal, we stay close to topic for a while, then it drifts here and there.

Meput/Jim2 (cause I claimed Jim1):  Glad to see you're back.  Did you get much time on your Hobie Cat this summer, and how did you like it.  I'm a bit envious.

[Gary]

Gang...I guess where I come from on all this...

I think it's more important to embelish the positive expereince of being there then the road traveled to get there.

Focusing on the technique and greatness of Harb, Clendenin along with other fine instructors, or whether you've attended their clinics or private lessons or just read their books and watched their videos in SLOW motion until each frame is burned into MY brain....whatever helps you "ski it and it not ski you" is for me what makes skiing the best thing going out there.

It's great fun to share what works for me be it skis or technique and to do so without judgement.

This brotherhood of skiing for most is about enjoying wherever and however we want to make turns. To be able to share the experience with great friends on terrain of your choice is what keeps us out there.

I know this technique thing will come up from time to time. But really, there's not one here if they're being honest with themselves that can't find some kind of flaw with any form of technique if they even care about self analyzing. But if it's technique that floats your boat or not...all the power to ya. Just be tolerant and respectful of others.

Pretty simple I think. G

[midwif]

Gary

Very nicely put.

Many here are fans of HH system, but there is room for civil discussion of differing points of view of how to get to the higher levels of skiing.

Lynn

[beastieboy]

I think Gary's points are excellent.  In the end, each of us will have our own goals relative to skiing.  I like to have a big tool box, and strive not to be fit into a box.  Like most others, I'm at least a little bit concerned about what others think, but since I don't see myself ski except from my own vantage point, I don't worry about it too much.  Am I having fun?  Can I make it down everything I want to having as much fun as I want to and as fast as I want to?  As with many skiers, I work to improve my bump skiing.  In the great continuum of skiers, I don't think I'm that bad, but there is always room to be better.  I think that HH has some excellent ideas on that.  I'm not much of a zealot - don't have the money for a bunch of lessons and clinics, I just love to ski.  But, I can appreciate that others have different goals.  To each their own.

 As for my name - pretty much just came up with it at the last minute.  One could make a contraction from the words Berkshire and East (where I ski) that forms the first part of the name.  The second part of the name - well, I am a guy.  Or, one could think that I'm shamelessly co-opting the name of a popular band (if you are of the opinion that what they make is 'music'.  Or, it could be the name that was used for a particular turn that we worked on last winter - the 'beastie turn'.  At the risk of being razzed by the guys this winter - in high school I was once referred to as a 'bull on skis' - which is pretty much being called a beast.  I got that name from the way I would go uphills in XC races.  Pretty much hold your speed until you see black spots in front of your eyes, and hold that speed to the top.  I'm sure I killed brain cells in the process.  High School was a long time ago...  Brain cells grow back, right???  I'll let Liam comment on whether the term applies to my downhill skiing.

Liam - no need to apologize.  I enjoy the conversation.  Like you, I'm not a zealot but appreciate the passion that comes into such discussions.  I like to be open to any ways that improve the experience of skiing.  Of course, there are some things that you have to do differently if you are in the handles of a toboggan...