Icon TT 80 -- binding position??

[ToddW]

I know a few strong skiers on this forum ski the Icon 80 at times.  On another forum, there is a post today about needing to move the bindings forward about a cm from the default to ski them.  It came across as a generally known fact.

Do any of you move the bindings forward?  I've been skiing them at the factory mark.  (Mine are last year's with the power rail, not the railflex of the previous year.)  I've been getting pretty forward to get performance out of them.  I'd heard that they were designed to be skied forward.  True or false?

Comments?

[jim-ratliff]

I am a believer in the BOF (Ball of Foot) over the CRS (Center of the running surface??) and have found that most of my Head skis felt better forward by 10-15 mm.  It's too difficult to do on my SuperShape Magnums with the Freeflex bindings, but I always moved by Railflex bindings on Head skis forward.


Power Rail would make it easy to test, is that what you have on the Icons?


http://www.realskiers.com/ski-bindings.htm

[jbotti]

I have raliflex bindings on mine and I ski them on groomers in the forward (+1.5cm) position. When I ski them off piste with softer snow and maybe a little fresh snow if I remember to dajust them (which is rare) I ski them on the line. You should just play with it. The power rail will adjust to any position. Try 1 to 1.5 cm forward and see if you don't like it better. Harlad, Max and I all ski them forward 1.5cm.

[jim-ratliff]

JB:  By the way, the template for mounting the Railflex and PowerRail plates is the same, so once you have a pair of PowerRail bindings you can swap in a PowerRail plate for  the Railflex ($30 or so for the plate) and thus upgrade any skis you want from RailFlex to PowerRail without redrilling the skis.

[jbotti]

Cool. I did not know that. That is very convenient!!

[Svend]

Todd, I don't ski the TT80, but I concur with Jim re. setting the binding at the BOF-CRS mark.  On every ski I've owned, that mark seems to give me the best fore'aft balance.  It's easy to do, but post back if you're not sure how, and one of us will walk you through it.  Should be a cinch with the Powerrail.

I've set up all my wife's and daughters' skis this way too, and it's working great for them as well (the only exception being my wife's Progressor 8s, which ski best at the factory mark).

As a general comment, on my Head and Fischer skis, I always seem to have to move the binding forward by 1 to 1.5 cm to get balanced, which happens to place me right on the BOF-CRS point.  Dynastar's factory mark seems to be more forward than others, and I always ski those at the default position, which also happens to be at BOF-CRS.   Nice.

Bottom line:  well worth doing, as the benefits in control and balance are significant.

Jim, to move the Freeflex bindings on your Magnums forward isn't difficult, just fussy and takes a bit of time.  Being that the carve plate is pre-drilled, it's a matter of unscrewing the toe and heel pieces, and screwing them back in to the next set of holes forward.  Takes a bit of torque on the screws to get them to seat proparly (there's a little trick to getting the binding to seat flat without needing excessive torque), but otherwise it's easy.  The fussy bit is keeping the connecting plates (the bits that connect the toe to the heel piece, with springs on older models) all together when you put it all back on again.  Also, a hefty Philips screwdriver with a large head is essential to get good grip on the screws.  Call or PM me if you want more info -- I've done this about six or seven times on Fischers and Heads.

[jbotti]

Better to use a Posi #3 than a phillips, otherwise you run the risk of stripping the screws.

[Svend]

Good point -- thanks for catching that John.  Forgot about the difference bet. Pozi and Philips. 

[HeluvaSkier]

In the last few seasons I have found myself gravitating more and more to within +/- 1cm of the BoF mark on all of my skis. I tend to use BoF as a starting point for all of my equipment now... meaning I start at BoF and then fine tune it if I need to move ahead or behind the line once I actually hit the snow/course. On my shorter GS skis I am just behind BoF... longer GS skis, I'm just ahead... SL skis, within a few mm of BoF. Freeride skis are now right on BoF... mainly because I don't consider them important enough to fine-tune.

One thing to note, and this might be the most important part of the whole process: It wasn't until I got my boots set properly that I gravitated toward a BoF preference. If your boots aren't "right" you may prefer a different position because your boots are actually forcing you into a position over the ski that is something other than the sweet spot... but it is the best you can get to with that boot setup. Before I dialed in my fore/aft in my boots I hated BoF - mainly because I was always slammed against the front of my boots, with very little ankle movement. Now... it is all about ankle movement, and I find myself preferring to stand over the ski a little differently... and it is better.

FWIW, those who have experience with Atomic race room skis will know this: Atomic offers one place to put the toe piece in their "real" race stock skis. One. That spot is where [for the sizes of boots that ski is likely to be used with] the athlete will best line up with the BoF mounting point. If you talk to some Austrian Atomic guys, they will basically tell you that, "this is where your toe goes" - as in, it isn't negotiable and if you think otherwise, there is something wrong with you or your skiing... but not the ski. 

[HeluvaSkier]

Looks like Max posted while I was posting - right on though. Boot setup and anatomy play a big role in determining the best spot on the ski for a given skier. To dial it in takes experimentation and time. Most are not willing to take the time, but IMO, the payoff is worth it.

[Svend]

Agreed on all points.  Well said, guys.  I should have been more explicit -- the BOF/CRS point works well for me, but certainly isn't for everyone.  Some people are more weight-forward in their skiing style.  Or as mentioned by Max and Heluvaskier, it's where their boots are forcing them to be.  The BOF mark may then be too far forward.  My wife is a good example -- she is an expert and powerful skater since childhood, and came late to skiing.  As a result, her natural skating stance has translated into her natural skiing stance, which is low and forward.  For her Supershape Speeds, the BOF mark is perfect, but is actually behind where the women's equivalent ski (Head Power One) would put her.  For the Fischer Progressor 8, she is at the factory default mark which is well back of BOF.  Everyone is different, but once you find the balance mark, you'll know it right away.

Todd, luckily you have a binding which allows you the ease of experimenting slope-side.  You can try a couple of different positions all in the same day with just the flick of a finger.  I've never used a Powerail, but it seems to be similar to the Dynastar/Look Fluid system.  Dead easy to adjust.

[ToddW]

Thanks, all.

I've moved bindings forward a bit and left myself a reminder note taped to the bindings.  I'll make a systematic sweep in 4mm increments and keep a journal once I'm on snow.  Chris and Diana have dialed in my boot fore-aft alignment on-snow, so that's one less complication to worry about.

I've never experimented with binding placement before.  I was intimidated by the thought of experimenting with position on bindings like the freeflex, not so much at the thought of moving them as of reusing screw holes in the plate.  And My im.78s ski so nicely that I never bothered to shift the railflex +/- 1.5 cm to see what it was like.

[Svend]

You can reuse the screw holes on a Speedplate several times.  Not sure what the limit is, but I recall hearing something like 3 or 4 times.  Anyone else know the answer? I have done this on Head and Fischer plates at least twice, and had good screw adhesion.  If you're worried about the screw slowly working its way out, perhaps a threadlocker like Loctite or Permatex would help.  Just make sure the solvents in there are OK for plastic.

But I think you can safely move the binding, with confidence that if you don't like it you can move it back again without worrying about your safety.  However, you will want to try and engage the same thread grooves with the screws when you reinsert them in a previously used hole.  If you cross-thread, I think you will weaken the hole by basically cutting a new thread in the plastic and mashing things up in there. 

[ToddW]

I'll try to get video.  Mac is switching back to my home mountain this season and I'm hoping to convince him to video me occasionally.  (I didn't have much luck finding people to take video last season.)

[jbotti]

If you carry the camera and have it all the time, and offer to shoot others, you have a good shot that they will return the favor. I have a sony camera that also shoots 720 hd video. The zoom is poor but it is sufficient to shoot some half way decent video and the camera fits in the palm of my hand. I have a somewhat larger Canon that shoots 720 HD and it has an excellent zoom and it fills up my hand. The best of course is to use a true video camera and some come as small as hand size and they aren't too tough to carry around all day. Max rarely skis anywhere without his Vid Camera.

Again you carry the camera, offer to shoot your friends and have them return the favor. If you do this you will get some video.