Knees Hurt on Wider skis in Powder??

[Liam]

I thought I'd pop this response to a complaint I've seen a few times on this forum about knee fatigue from multiple powder days on wide skis.

How do you guys ski powder?  I don't ask this by way of proposing a 'best way to ski powder' nor am I looking for advice, but I do think the techniques one selects has a lot to do with leg fatigue on certain equipment.  Mostly, I have to say that my experience is the opposite,  that in powder, I get more fatigued on skinnier skis in podwer (and I certainly work harder).  I can understand the knee soreness from using over 105mm skis on harder or mixed surfaces, but in actual powder, I find the wide skis produce less stress on my legs than skinny skis do on groomers.

My suspicion is that the more 'carvy' your approach is to powder skiing, the more your leg joints get worked in deeper snow.  Basically, in deeper snow, I stand fairly tall, narrow, and stacked.  I rhythmically flex my knees and tip my skis ever so slightly---just enough to create some curvature to my fairly shallow, sinuous turns.  I tend to ski a lot more square to my direction of travel in powder than in any other condition.  Honestly, I try to make as minimal movements as are required to go were I want to go at the speed I want to go.  I'm only after that feeling of floating and 'pulsing' through the snow.  I don't seek to play with the forces of gravity  in and out of the fall line, rather, I pretty much commit to the fall line and to gravity adding minimalist ski input.  Slightly controlled free-falling is the great joy of powder, for me.

I ski with some who love to really work their turns even in powder and they love a carvier ski (in fact, they all ski Shamans)..but I don't, and that is probably why I selected the Nomad Sft over the Shaman as my powder ski.  And, it is also why, I think, my knees don't ever hurt in powder.

Anyway-what is your approach to powder, and what is your ideal ski (even if it doesn't exist, how would you design it to match your style and technique)?   Mine might by that new Icelantic Gypsy, I'd love to try it on a big mountain with some real snow to find out.

[jim-ratliff]

My knees don't bother me at all in soft snow, even on groomed.  But I can feel it at the end of the day skiing the Ullr's Chariots on harder surfaces. However, I feel the pressure  and tiredness in my ankles even more than m my knees.
Just one vote. My goal is to ski the same everywhere, release and tip to turn. In reality, I probably push the tails around to turn before I hit the tree, but thats expediency and not the desired approach.

[bushwacka]

I like to turn like this













it makes me smile



I like snappy high G force turns everywhere. I do not like when the ski dictates them to me though. skis like the Shamans frustrate me because of how unpredictable they are in mixed conditions and also how smearable there are when you need to do that. Angles can be had in powder and the feeling of using the skis bases to generate G-force is a damn cool one for me.



First me knees do not hurt in powder on wider skis. They hurt on hard surfaces on fat skis though.

Ideal can have alot of meaning. Truly the ideal powder ski for anyone is a a reverse sidecut, reverse camber ski.

With that said I do not own a pair because they are scary on anything that is not 3d snow.

For me my ideal powder ski for Stowe is 185cm -190 cm long, around 20-25 meter sidecut, 110-115 under foot which means roughly a 140-145 tip and 130- 135 tail to get to that sidecut. Slightly low rise rocker along the entire ski. Just stiff enough underfoot to GS turn on everything but true ice, soft tip and and tail to be playful.

Ill explain each aspect even though with skis they are come together.

110mm underfoot is a very tolerable width for me on hard pack, with at least 185cm in length its is going to float me on almost all sketchy snow conditions. The length need to be long enough to platform on fresh snow and to be stable. The bigger platform actually allows the skis to turn quicker at speed since there is more surface area to redirect me.

the sidecut of 20-25 meters lets me GS turns the groomer sections easy enough while not being catchy where I am really skiing

Long and low rise rocker because it make the ski surf with out being a buzzkill on hardpack.

skis that I have loved skiing here

186cm Rossi Sickle (which I now own and fits everything I said)
185cm Nordica Patron
180 and 190cm Icelandtic Gypsies
183cm Atomic Blog and Bentchentler
190cm DPS RP112

skis that I have liked

181cm Nomad SFT - would love to try it with long and low rise
183cm Katana(owned) and the 190cm - to heavy and damp for my taste otheriwse nearly perfect
186cm rockered Gotama - its edge hold on hardpack sucked but was super fun in the woods
188cm Rossi S7 - could still see this having a spot in my quiver since it deal with manky snow better than anything else I have tried sucks on hardpack
183cm Non rockered Gotama - kinda of straight side cut kinda of chore like in bumps
192cm Atomic Thugs(still own) - these are my go to bluebird powder day skis out west. With a 40 meter sidecut they are not catchy at all and live for speed. With that said the 40 meter sidecut lack of rocker and 120mm limit their usefull in the east.
185cm Blizzard Cochise - alittle to stiff for my use at stowe also lacks a twin tip, great western everyday ski, still want to own.

[jbotti]

I agree with BushW (I thought I might never say that ), it is definitely much harder on knees with wide skis on harder snow. I think if went for much lower edge angle turns it would have less impact on the kness, but who wants to do that!!

I also think if you tip first even off piste getting wider skis on edge just requires more torque on all the body parts involved in tipping. As we get older the knees just seem to bark from the tendons getting a little inflamed.

I think Sskelson may be right when he says maybe 90-95mm underfoot may be as wide as we need to go even in pow. I saw Max ski the Movement Pariah which is 92 (maybe 94 underfoot) and he clearly need nothing wider (at least not in Montana). When you get PNW heavy snow or what everyone  calls Sierra Cement, going a little wider definitley helps.

I have been hoping that the Chariot is the perfect ski for softer snow especially with it being thinner than the Shamans. We will see!

[Gary]

I only get out the fat boards when the snow is above boot high cause I find the Mx78's are easier on the knees in crud and broken snow where I too like to create more angles with skis and body.

However, in pow boot high and above, I'm very soft edge to edge  focused much more on tipping and engaging the uphill edge, scrape it in, using soft edges, the float and feeling relaxed and more upright. No soreness in knees with this approach for me. It's when I try to bang the pow boards hard edge to edge that I will feel the wear and tear on the legs.

So staying on the 78's under boot high keeps it easier on the legs. They are shorter and since I modified the tails for easier release with my drummel, they are much more playful in 3d snow.

IMO using Clendenin's approach in pow, bumps and 3d makes skiing these conditions relaxing and less taxing.  I've been with guys that have had both knees replaced and now skiing using this technique, they ski bumps beautifully.

Best, G

[HighAngles]

No matter what the ski conditions, if you achieve your tipping primarily through knee angulation you're either having knee pain now on wider boards or you will eventually over time.

I think really wide skis provide great feedback on the quality of your tipping.  When you use large amounts of knee angulation you aren't taking advantage of skeletal stacking to support the forces of a turn.  A highly knee angulated position is a "weak" position.  I should know because I've been a knee angulation skier for most of my life.  It wasn't until late last season that this problem with my skiing was pointed out to me, but if I stay focused I have found that it's not too hard to achieve stronger ski tipping without relying on large amounts of knee angulation.

So compare these two ways of achieving ski tipping:
1. Just "swinging" your knees side-to-side (laterally)
2. Relaxing the inside free leg and tipping that foot while allowing the outside stance leg to "follow" the angles dictated by the amount of relaxing and tipping of the free foot.

There's a big difference between these two methods and you'll really feel it with wide skis.

[Gary]

Well said HA #2 is so much easier on the body, IMO makes skiing crud and pow much easier.  Skiing with feet's is where it's at.  g