rockered skis can not carve.

[bushwacka]

false 

I have seen a ton of stuff on here on how rockered skis can not carve or hook ups as well. this is some fairly hard man made snow and the skier is on 98mm wide camberless skis with tip and tail rocker. I also could use this for the stupid advice of buying narrow skis because someone is smaller skier(5'2 120 lb) they should be on a narrowor ski.

http://www.youtube.com/user/JDMCivicSm21?feature=mhee

[Gary]

Yup....I come from the same church....rockered skis can carve...

But IMO...certain conditions make that demonstration easy or difficult....

In reality....I never bought my DPS112rps (or my Rossi S3's which love being on edge)  for carving....it's a plus and loads of fun when the conditions are right.

G

[LivingProof]

Bush,
I'm thinking this is your friend Liz, who just happens to be pretty ripping skier, maybe  somewhere near your ability? Does she have a racing background? There are plenty of pics showing both you and Max on fat skis with really high carving edge angles. Just examine the body angles she makes and tell me what % of the skiing general public can make same. Nothing lazy in her skiing, I'd love to follow (or try) down a run. She gets on edge above the fall line and tightens the turn radius.

Not sure I'd agree the mantra is that fat ski's can't carve, it's more like fat skis and the general skiing public combine to produce some park and ride technique. Now, that's a statement that I consider a generalization, and, we all know you can't apply a generalization to the specific. More often than not, I'd argue that the carving seen on fat skis is done long after the fall line.

With respect to smaller women and fat skis, all I know is never tell a woman she can't do something.

[Liam]

Bush,
I'm thinking this is your friend Liz, who just happens to be pretty ripping skier, maybe  somewhere near your ability? Does she have a racing background? There are plenty of pics showing both you and Max on fat skis with really high carving edge angles. Just examine the body angles she makes and tell me what % of the skiing general public can make same. Nothing lazy in her skiing, I'd love to follow (or try) down a run. She gets on edge above the fall line and tightens the turn radius.

Not sure I'd agree the mantra is that fat ski's can't carve, it's more like fat skis and the general skiing public combine to produce some park and ride technique. Now, that's a statement that I consider a generalization, and, we all know you can't apply a generalization to the specific. More often than not, I'd argue that the carving seen on fat skis is done long after the fall line.

With respect to smaller women and fat skis, all I know is never tell a woman she can't do something.

Yeah, but LP, Skinny Skis and the General Public also combine to produce some park and ride technique.

Of course rockered skis can carve...provided they also have side cut (I'm not a fan of the reverse side cut ski, though that is one new school fad that seems to have finally floundered).  They take more effort edge to edge, especially if you want to be quick edge to edge, but that's not a problem for a skilled skier (as in the above video).  The lack of camber is a notable trade off on hard snow, you can still carve but you do lose a lot of rebound snap in-between turns.

Good video and good topic. 

[LivingProof]

Yeah, but LP, Skinny Skis and the General Public also combine to produce some park and ride technique.

Good video and good topic.

Liam,
Yup, we sure see a lot bad skiing on skinny and fat skis. It hurts my eyes, at times, to look at the quality of the skiing. Minor rant on - This time of the season, some of the worst are my local mountain's Ski School instructors, many are brand new candidates and still learning....but they are wearing the Jackets. About 10 each morning they come en-mass for a group ski. Not pretty. Minor rant off.
 
Speaking of selective use of data, Bush could use the same video of his friend to argue that all one needs to carve is a 100 mm ski and some nice Stowe ice.   Maybe spice it up with some video of an average skier on skinny skis. The "before and after" look.

Minor drift, but, I always wanted to see some "before and after" video of typical Harb ski week participant.

[bushwacka]

yes she can rip. D1 collegiete 100 point FIS racer. when I watch her on groomers I always think she is better than me. She has yet to beat me at a local race though, and it surprises me everytime I would say she is clearly in the 1 percent.

Liam with the ski in question I would say there is alot of rebound at the end of the turn.

LP clearly in this video the carving is prior to the fall line, its an easy blue run but its what we got right now..

[bushwacka]

I think the fact there are multiple terms is lame.

Rocker describe it all just some have more o less than others.

Concisely define the difference between early rise and rocker if you think otherwise

[HeluvaSkier]

Skiers can't carve. Skis are largely irrelevant.

[Liam]

What ski is she skiing??

[bushwacka]

Liam Blizzard  "the ones" in a 163cm.

[HighAngles]

And a cambered ski will hook up earlier than a rockered ski.

This is the real crux of the matter to me.  The video only shows 17 seconds of her skiing and I do understand that she's a good skier, but there is no "top" to any of those turns in the video (they're basically skipped).  Skis with any substantial tip rocker just completely miss the top of the turn where you should be getting "power" into the ski so that it's there by the apex.  Most skiers are just getting their edges up at the apex and laying on them hard through the bottom of the turn.  There's a big difference in technique here and the ability to get maximum performance out of a ski.

I'm not a rocker bigot or zealot - I believe that they have their place in a quiver, but they sure aren't my tools of choice for a heavy carving day.

[Liam]

The One is not a full rocker so there is a decent amount of ski on the snow at neutral. That is the part of the ski that is carving in the early phase of the turn. As the turn progresses more of the ski edge comes into contact with the snow. Imagine starting off carving a short SL ski that morphs into a GS ski by the end of the turn.

Such a ski would be a good thing, right?  Is this pro or con in a ski like the One?

[jim-ratliff]

I think its a Pro compared to a full rockered ski,
but a Con compared to a cambered ski or to a cambered ski with early rise.


(I know, I know, I'm using my  terms as I understand them without defining them)

[HeluvaSkier]

...I do understand that she's a good skier, but there is no "top" to any of those turns in the video (they're basically skipped). 

Just looking at the skiing, I think that this is a function of the technique rather than the ski. The ski isn't helping balance-wise in the top of the turn, but I wouldn't place all the blame there. You usually don't start to see a clear development of the top of the turn until you get into the 40-50 point racers though - especially in women. She's definitely a great skier, but I'd say that the skiing is representative of her points from a technical POV. That said she can probably teach nearly anyone on the mountain a thing or two about technique... You don't become a 100-point racer by accident. Most don't anyway.

[LivingProof]

Just looking at the skiing, I think that this is a function of the technique rather than the ski. The ski isn't helping balance-wise in the top of the turn, but I wouldn't place all the blame there. You usually don't start to see a clear development of the top of the turn until you get into the 40-50 point racers though - especially in women.

Since Hulluva opened the door, let me try something way above my pay grade and talk about a technical aspect of Liz's skiing. As many of you know, I've been programmed, some say brainwashed, over the past 5 years to avoid extension movements in releasing the skis. The up-movement is clear in her skiing and at the top of the turn, I don't see how she can begin to hook up her skis as extension has pushed her body away from the snow and she would be light. Yes or no? Once she comes down and brings the skis to edge, she rips and carves the place up far better than I.

Josh, do you have similar video of you doing this type of carving. From looking at stills, my sense is that you do use more flexing in the release portion of your skiing. How do you teach this aspect of a turn?