Hirscher: Balancing flawless technique with aggressivness

[jbotti]

Here is a cross post from the PMTS Forum. Seems relevant for here as well. Watching this guy is amazing:

Let me start by saying that I am at best a interested amatuer at analyzing WC racing. I have also been blessed this season being a DirecTV sub instead of a Comcast sub (as Universal Sports just got canned on Comcast). I DVR the broadcasts (which are not in HD!!) and in the technical events I watch them multiple times before I free up space on the disk.

I am not sure I have ever seen someone balance the line between technique and agressiveness quite the way Hirscher does. Typically we see one end of the spectrum or the other. Bode is on one end trying to take the most aggressive (fastest) line down the mountain using his pure athleticism as he attempts to ski "the perfect run". When he gets it right, he has a good shot of winning. Ted is also darn agressive but clearly has better technique (ceratinly gets the deepest edge angles of almost anyone skiing GS) and is carving turns that only 2-3 other guys are able to do. Benni Raich was more on the other end as a pure technical skier who wasn't fond of risks.

But what I see in Hirscher is a guy that is in balance, less back than most skiers, has great technical skills (can carve the same turns that Ted does) and he is also takes a very agressive line at times. The combo is just death on everyone else. As well because he is in such great balance all the time, when he makes mistakes he is recovering way faster than others that take risks that are in less good balance (Ted and the rest of the field).

If you aren't watching this guy regularly, you are truly missing something. He is dominating Slalom right now and he is giving Ted a run for his money in GS. Ted has won 3 this year and Hirscher 2). If they both ski their best I'd say it's a toss up as to who will win (and Ted has not skied his best in the last few GS races).

Lastly watching Hisrcher is good for your skiing especially if you freeze frame in spots. He is a skiing genius and all the essentials are on display in every turn!! Really fun to watch!!

[Liam]

You know, you don't have to be  a 'pro' analyst to analyze any sport (in fact, I think it's funny that we've made sports analysis such a widespread and lucrative career).  WC skiing is easy to analyze, like any sport, those who win consistently are the best.  Period.  It's that simple truth that makes our love affair with sports run so deep.  The last meritocracy standing is professional sports.

I like to watch Blake Griffin to practice my power dunks

[Gary]

Interesting stuff JB....I have not seen him and will be on the alert for watching him ski.

What is truly inspiring to me is the skills these skiers have....even taking a look at freeride competitions and some of the things skiers toss their bodies off of and the speeds they ski at.

I personally can take away from all this is the gift that they posses.  To have the ability to perform at that level in competition.  What's fun for me when watching them perform is if I can see just any ONE thing that I do even slightly similar to what any of them do....I say to myself..."oh yeah....I'm ALMOST that good!"....then go out and play on a nice run with 6inches of granular powder along the edges...what YOU see is me....what I see is me channeling them......oh yeah....I'm living the dream! 
 
If you run across a Youtube site with him skiing...share it...and thanks...g

[jbotti]

Liam, I do think that ski racing is similar to car racing. We all drive cars but unless you have actually been on a track in a true race car, the average person has no clue as to the forces and speeds they are dealing with. Ski racing is the same. Unless you have skied gates on ice at 55mph in GS, then yes you know what skiing is like but you have no clue what forces and speeds they are delaing with and what it takes to win at that level. That's why I qualified my commentary.

Of course we can all analyze all sports and yes it is fun.

Gary, check this out. This is an Italian braodcast of the Adelboeden GS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Olui98fR9cA&feature=uploademail

[Gary]

Man...talk about being on the edge....I was breathing hard by the end of the video....Hirshcer was amazing but gesh....on any given day....crazy times for sure!

It was interesting that Ligity avoided gate contact compared to the Germans....I don't know enough about it to say one way or the other...but I was something I noticed.

Still...as fun as that is to watch, I have no interest in having the mountain go by that fast on a beautiful day! It is cool however knowing that huge technology advances have been handed down to the rest of us in ski equipment and gear....certainly another positive results from these superstars!

Best, G

[smackboy1]

Liam, I do think that ski racing is similar to car racing. We all drive cars but unless you have actually been on a track in a true race car, the average person has no clue as to the forces and speeds they are dealing with. Ski racing is the same.

Agree 100%.

I think both disciplines involve the art of balance and smoothness. The razor's edge between grip and sliding. I have an unproven belief that skiers are better car drivers because we are used to the G forces and sensation of sliding in a turn.  Does anybody else here autocross/drive on a track in the summer?

[Liam]

Agree 100%.

I think both disciplines involve the art of balance and smoothness. The razor's edge between grip and sliding. I have an unproven belief that skiers are better car drivers because we are used to the G forces and sensation of sliding in a turn.  Does anybody else here autocross/drive on a track in the summer?

Does that mean Dale Earnhardt Junior and Jimmy Johnson are most likely ripping skiers?  Well, Johnson can do that back flip off the hood of his car, so he'd probably excel in the park.

Jbotti, nope, I don't think you have to be a wc skier to understand the sport...you've done a fine analysis of Hirscher and I doubt anyone, even Hirscher himself would disagree with what you say.

Point two on the popularity of sports...They don't really require much brain work to understand and appreciate  (If they did, well, they wouldn't be all that popular).   Some guys rely on the aggressive line, some on technique, Hirscher excels at both and gets good results.   And that is a somewhat atypical approach among successful WC athletes.  Got it.  Good stuff.  Top flight analysis (honestly, you've got his number, he rips and he's technical).

[HeluvaSkier]

So Liam, do your comments mean that if we put up a random video of a WC ski run that you could tell us why the skier won or lost from a technical and tactical perspective?

[jbotti]

BTW, I just watched the Slalom from Adelboden again. Wow, this was one brutal race. Not only is the terrain just scary both in pitch and terrain (side hill noles etc), but the conditions were just brutal with injected ice covered with fresh snow and massive almost mogul like ruts all over after the first 10 guys. Then at one point the fog rolled in!! Truly amazing watching these guys battle through. There is no way any of us can relate and all of us (with perhaps the exception of Heluvaskier) would ski out within 4 gates in these conditions. I will look for the youtube link. This is must see racing!

[jbotti]

Here it is!!

[smackboy1]

Agree that none of us can relate to their awesome skill and athleticism. But another aspect that I've also never been able to relate to is: how much of the race is already pre-determined before Ligety or Hirscher even step into the start house? To the extent that the highest echelon of sport is akin to a chess match, what is the contribution of: equipment; support team; strategy; finances; course conditions; random luck?

Just to pick one thing: how would things be different if all these guys were allowed to choose and set up their own equipment (within the rules) free of the constraints of sponsorship?

[jbotti]

But another aspect that I've also never been able to relate to is: how much of the race is already pre-determined before Ligety or Hirscher even step into the start house? To the extent that the highest echelon of sport is akin to a chess match, what is the contribution of: equipment; support team; strategy; finances; course conditions; random luck?

Just to pick one thing: how would things be different if all these guys were allowed to choose and set up their own equipment (within the rules) free of the constraints of sponsorship?

I have had this conversation a few times with my friend who used to be the head coach of the US Ski team. I think at the end of the day the best athletes and best skiers find a way to win which isn't to say that they don't at times struggle with their equipment. Bode didn't stay long with Rossi (and skied brilliantly on Fischer). Some have said that Head has really struggled to produce great slalom skis and perhaps this is contributing to the fact that none of their skiers are producing in slalom. Skiers need good skis and fast skis and boots have to be set up correctly. And just because a skier is with a solid company (like Atomic) it doesn't mean that they will automatically get their best skis. Their are many instances over the past 10 yeasr that have driven US skiers away from Atomic, who always favor the Austrian team and go out of their way to hinder the performance at times of ther non Austrian athletes. Darren Rahlves was really the last major US skier with an Atomic contract (and Bode won big on Atomic but didn't stay long for much of these reasons).

Not sure we can seperate the two. Part of ski racing is balancing the income from equipment contracts with finding the best performing skis.

[jim-ratliff]

Agree 100%.

I think both disciplines involve the art of balance and smoothness. The razor's edge between grip and sliding. I have an unproven belief that skiers are better car drivers because we are used to the G forces and sensation of sliding in a turn.  Does anybody else here autocross/drive on a track in the summer?

Actually, I've heard it said that we have all experienced driving much like a race car. Its very much like driving on ice.  They are always so close to the limit of traction, just as with ice. A little bit more acceleration takes away traction for steering, use your traction for braking, you don't have as much for steering.
We can't experience the G forces or the reaction distances of higher speeds, but the balance required is similar.

[smackboy1]

Actually, I've heard it said that we have all experienced driving much like a race car. Its very much like driving on ice.  They are always so close to the limit of traction, just as with ice. A little bit more acceleration takes away traction for steering, use your traction for braking, you don't have as much for steering.

The physics is the same. There is a saying in auto racing that if the car is cornering like it's on rails, you are driving too slowly. The hands and feet are constantly correcting to keep the car from slipping too much. That's the same thing I see in a WC skier fighting to keep the edges carving in the turn, but not so much that speed is lost.

The ski shovel is like the front tires and the tail is like the rear tires. If there isn't enough weight on the ski shovels it won't turn, like an understeering car. If there isn't enough weight on the ski tails they wash out, like an oversteering car. An understeering car will go off track and an oversteering car is slow (like a skidding skier).

[bushwacka]

he guys stop with the car talk with all do respect none of you know what you are talking about and cars to skiing is usually not applicable.

I raced autocross very successfully from 2000 - 2006, mixed with Rally racing(dirt/pavement/snow/ice), go kart racing(5 hpspec karts to 35 HP shifter monsters that go 0-100 in less than 6 seconds), Road Racing in productions cars. SCCA ITB and NASA Honda Challenge, as well as stints in some moderately powered Open wheel wing cars like Fomula Atlantics.

The fastest way to drive on ice/snow which is not really the safest is to use the cars power to pull it though the turn. Trying to get a car to grip on ice is way slower than throwing the rear end out and using the throttle to pull back on to intended line. You steer into the turn and then you counter steer as the tail comes out. 

On pavement all cars driven by skilled fast driver will always oversteer at least slightly at the limit for the same reason. Loose is fast, tight is slow(but safe). In my own car they were set up to be so unstable that simply lifting off the gas would cause the car to rotate untill you slammed back down on the throttle. The advantage of a FWD car with gobs of power to weight is that you can get the car to oversteer and basically hang the car on the front wheels pulling it out of a turn.

short video of local Autocross(the racing equivalent of SL) showing how the car is setup to oversteer and adding throttle stops it from spinning.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8061599513319714304

BTW that car with me behind the wheel has dozens of fastest times of the day aka overall win. I spanked so many exotics and muscle cars its funny. 200 wheel horsepower in a 1900lb car with 8 inch wide tires.

Even in the fastest cars I have driven Shifter Karts and Formula Atlantics they were still set up to oversteer.Evne the grippiest cars F1 car drift.