The Decline of Tail Rocker

[jbotti]

I have been vocal for the past two years or so about how much I don't like tail rocker and about how it promotes movements that are not good for ones skiing. I don't wish to rehash this debate as we have spent enough time and energy on it in the past. Rather, I was reading through posts from TGR last night looking at what is coming out next year from the ski manufacturers. One trend is evident, a de-emphasis of tail rocker is occurring especially with their higher end/expert free ride skis. We are seeing a return in many skis of the flat tail. Rossi did it this year with the E88 and E98. Dynastar has come out with the Cham line for next year and it has a mild rockered tip with a flat tail and no twin. As I read more and more I noticed many new skis for 2013 with this design and amazingly a large de-emphasis of tail rocker. Could they be listeningg to what good skierrs are saying? Is this the natural evolution of the rocker craze?

Skiing in Montana I have gotten to be friends with Scott Scmidt (2 time world exterme skiing champ and the guy that revolutionized ski movies). I have been lucky enough to ski with Scott a good bit (yes he slays all terrain all the time). Scott and I were talking about ski design. He deisgns or helps design a good percentage of the Stockli free ride line and he designs 100% of the Scott Scmidt model. Scott thinks that tail rocker is actually a detraction for good skiers that are skiing crazy lines. I mentioned the ability to bleed off speed and he says that you can bleed off speed just as easily with a falt tail. I trust that he has no probelm doing it although I have never seen him come close to needing to bleed off speed as he has only two speeds, fast and faster!!

Scott's designs are pretty simple. Modest tip rocker, modest camber (and at times zero camber) and a flat tail.

Now my commentary does not mean that you will not see tail rockered skis. I think you will continue to see it with truly pow oriented skis (like the S7 and others like it). And there continuies to be a place for this with people that want that smeary/ slarvy feel and the increased flexibility it gives them in 3d snow. I do think that you will be seeing many more big mountain "charge" skis in widths between 88 and 110mm underfoot that will have modest tip rocker and a flat tail.

I obviously think that this is a good thing! The more good skiers I talk to the more universal I find tail rocker is disliked and it appears that the ski co's are listening.

Looking forward to demoing some of these!!

Now if Phil still posted here he could tell us about all of these skis!!

[Liam]

I noticed the same thing--the 'Rocker Revolution' has really begun to tone down, especially in the tail.

However, I haven't seen a turn of powerful, stiff flat tails either in wider skis...have you?

I still like a twinned or slightly twinned (ala' the Head Peak/monsters) tail, but I see the wisdom in taming the rear end rocker for most folks.  The need to 'pivot' in deep and funky snow may not be that paramount, but I think most folks, even technical purists see the advantages of an easy-releasing tail on a wider ski.

Does Scot Schmidt like the Stockli Stormrider 95??  Of all the boutique skis that's the one I am most interested in.   Schmidt's skis were stiffer than Dominique Peret's models!

[jbotti]

The new Scott Schmidt skis are actually very skiable and toned down from the original version. He does like the 95 and I am skiing it next weekend so I can let you know how I like it. Max has been skiing the Head Rock n Roll (at 94mm underfoot) and he loved it and bought it. I think a review is coming but that is another nice ski in the 95mm range as well (and it may actually have modest tail rocker!).

[HeluvaSkier]

My bro is skiing Salomon Sentinels; 184's. He loves them. They are another case of a tighter turning, flat tailed, wide ski. I'm seriously considering a pair as well.

[Liam]

The RnR doesn't have what I consider to be rocker. Head markets it as having flow rise (early rise tip and tail), but its minimal. I am not a fan or rocker, even modest amounts, which is the primary reason I don't like the Bonafide (among others).

Does the RnR have any early rise in the tail???  I know the flow rise is the extra flexy front end on the head skis.

Lemmy forever!

[bushwacka]

I actually love tail rocker but not on trail at all. The deal is literally when I say i am skiing nearly 100 percent trees I actually mean that. Tail rocker has it place there where it always soft and when it is not you still want to be able to turn quickly IE stowe's woods.

[HighAngles]

Tail rocker is really only useful in deep 3D conditions and then it's only if you like that slarvy turn feel or want to be able to easily turn your skis from the backseat in deep pow.  That was probably my most major observation last season on tail rocker - I was amazed at how easily you could turn your skis being completely in the backseat (practically pulling "wheelies") with total control.  It was really kinda fun, but it certainly wouldn't get much approval from the PMTS crowd!

The tail rocker also certainly adds to the ability to make super short turns in deep snow without needing to really "load" the ski.  My Wailer 112RP are the most nimble skis I own for tree skiing in 3D conditions.  They turn by just thinking "turn".

One other comment - tail rocker can actually be somewhat of a teaching aid on hard pack.  My buddy was out on his new DPS Wailer 99 skis for the first time at Keystone.  As he headed down the slope doing some high angle GS turns he came over a ridge on the groomer and was promptly launched onto his back because his weight had gotten a bit too far back and there was no tail there to support him.  He has adjusted to the skis just fine though and he loves them, but clearly you need to ski them centered to more forward on the groomers.

[dan.boisvert]

Max, any thoughts on the RnR vs the Movement Pariah?  I'm considering a yearend addition, and was thinking about something in the 95mm, 180cm, ~20m radius range.  I'd probably be mounting it up with a Sollyfit plate so I could use it as both an inbounds as well as a touring ski.

[bushwacka]

Max, any thoughts on the RnR vs the Movement Pariah?  I'm considering a yearend addition, and was thinking about something in the 95mm, 180cm, ~20m radius range.  I'd probably be mounting it up with a Sollyfit plate so I could use it as both an inbounds as well as a touring ski.

almost our touring on this coast is either to get to trees, tight chutes, ADk slides, and more open stuff in the white mountains.

When the snow is really deep and your in tight places 100 mm gets easily overwhelmed especially with traditional camber like the Pariah.  Although when in more open chutes or open place like Mount Washington its less of issue IMO.

Currently I have..

186cm Rossi Sickles 110 mm waist with DUKEs - used for when I know I am skiing powder.

Pros - skis powder in tight places really well, skis powder really well, stable platform to launch airs on. easier to ski in weird BC conditions than the other skis. twin tipped is easy to back up on in any snow conditions.

cons- heavy as ****, wide waist torques need/binding when skinning on hardpack.

177cm Blizzard "THe one" 98mm waist with Dukes - used for when I am not really sure if its going to be deep powder and or REALLY tight places

Pros - lighter than sickles, easier to kick turn, really fun in 95 percent of the snow you will ever find.

Cons - still pretty heavy, gets overwhelmed in really deep snow and weird crust or wet snow.

180cm Blizzard Bushwacker 88mm with Barons - used for corn snow, light snow, or when I want my lightest setup.

Pros - very light setup while still using a trust worthy binding, great grip on harder snow, really fun and carvable on corn snow.

Cons - lack of twin makes it a pain in the ass in tight spots, get really hard to turn when its tight and deep.

Personaly for east coast touring I would pick a 98-105 mm ski that is pretty soft, has tip and tail rocker while being flat or cambered underfoot, pretty light and mount with the new Guardian for dual duty. The best ski I have tried that fit this description is the DPS Wailer 99 Pure. For you probably in the 178cm. If you really like it get a a true powder touring ski after that.

[dan.boisvert]

Cool--thank you for the recommendations; I'll keep an eye out for those.  I'd be looking at these mostly for traveling, but maybe occasional more open stuff in the Whites.  I'd imagine they'd see more days in the Alps or Rockies than here.  If they'd hold up okay on piste as well, that would be ideal, and mean I could travel with only one pair of skis if I was expecting snow.  I did the two pairs of skis, boots, etc thing last December in Austria, and lugging it all sucked.

I've been looking at trad camber skis because I know and like them.  My only exposure to rockered skis was demoing a pair of Salomon Lords a couple years ago, which I hated in pretty much every possible way.  I'm not opposed to the idea or anything, but I'd want to have positive experiences with skis in the category before spending a bunch of money on a pair of my own.  Any chance you've got a 303mm BSL and a generous swap-skis-for-a-run policy?  I've got a pair of Monster iM78's I'm sure you'd love if I ever make it up to Stowe.. 

[bushwacka]

I have a 305 you can it into any of my skis as most will adjust. I can also put you in touch with the DPS rep if you want to try out their carbon wunder skis.

Just be warned rocker is a change to our skiing. we do not always like change but sometime embracing it untill it feels better is for the best.

IMO the Lord sucks, it is the lord of sucking at everything. I too hated that thing felt like a freaking noodle with no float. most people who liked them sucked at skiing and or never tried anything better.

[bushwacka]

I have and tried them out in utah.

They are for sure quicker and easier to ski and much easier in weird crust and very heavy snow.

but they are a pain to tour on, and they are extremely limiting when you start hitting a hard base.

with that said the Wootest from praxis would be fun to try.