Lynn skiing

[jim-ratliff]

Lynn asked me to post a video for some analysis, so I picked one.  I'll let her tell everyone what she's looking for.  I know Bushwacka had some very good thoughts based on her avatar, and she would like to include that into this thread as well.

My apologies for the wandering focus, we were still learning the camera and the constraints thereof.
I do find it interesting how much better lighter colors show up in the ultra bright of the snow.
She finds a better rhythm once she drops over to a bit steeper pitch (but then the knoll hides her feet),

Lynn  stepping into the conversation:

Josh critiqued my avatar photo. I looked again at the avatar and realized he was right on. My torso is counteracted, but it does not include the pelvis. Something I have been aware that I have trouble doing.
Diana had me looking over my left shoulder as I initiated the turn to my right. This helped me counter act with pelvis as well. But I struggle to keep that movement w/o the "drill" movement.

Anyway, I invite constructive critique. Unfortunate that I won't be able to work on any of it till next ski season. 


Josh comments below:
Re:   ski photo
 
Hey, so some good things in that photo. Your shoulders are square and level. Yours hips however are not, they are twisted and square to the ski, and they are also leaned into the turn. Your are creating seperation somewhere in your lower back which is bad for several reason. Its weak, unbalanced and slow comapred to the seperation coming from our hip socket.

I very much agree with the PMTS that we should strive to use edging(tipping)/ outside skis pressue(a by product of CA/CB) and not use rotary as much as we can. The issue is CA/CB can only be achieved when our legs and hips are separated from a rotary axis. The femurs should be turning inside our hip socket. Whether or not we are doing or the skis are doing is  difference between PSIA and PTMS. With that said separation from a rotary axis and lateral axis should be happening at the hip socket and not in your lower back like it is happening with you.

Josh

Video from the same day.

[jim-ratliff]

Josh:

So what would be a good drill that you would suggest (either on-snow or off) that would help us get that movement?

Jim

[jbotti]

I have just been through the unlocking the hips process. Start by standing static and then tip the skis on edge. While the skis are one edge (static, not moving) , push your inside arm forward creating upper body CA. Now while you are doing this make sure the hips also move with the upper body. Go back from no CA to adding CA and eachh time make the hips move. Take notice of what this feels like. Now to feel the hips creating CA in motion, start by doing slow two footed relesases but use almost or no tipping. The goal here is to make the skis come around and the only force that will actually do this without tipping is hip CA. Do this on flat terrain and go for full hip CA on every edge change/turn. If you really move the hips fully into CA the skis will come around. This is purely an exercise to start to feel the muscles and the sensation that should be present when the hips are countering on turns. Skiing this way (huge hip counter with no tipping) is dangerous to your form! Once you have skied enough with no tipping using huge hip counter, go back to adding tipping in your two footed releases.

I spent the better part of 15 skis days doing not much other than TFR's, and NSPP turns at slow speeds making sure that my hips were countered on every turn. Once I felt I had this in place I went back to practicing edge locked carved turns, making sure that the hips were CA on every turn. This took a while for me to get the hang of, but because I knew what it should feel like I could easily tell when I was and wasn't doing it.

Hip CA is very powerful and once you get it and can feel it you will start to naturally use it (again it will take some real drill work). It has changed my skiing.

There are a lot of long threads on the PMTS forum speaking to this as well. A search using CA or hip counter will uncover them.

[Gary]

Hey Lynn...looks like  you're creating lots of great angles there for sure...to add to the comments already made...

It looks to me like you're missing that "moment" in the float. I think the feet and hips are moving rapidly from edge to edge without that "moment" where the skis are flat, hips centered, all stacked and then transitioning to the new edge. Without it, the transitions are more brushed.

Adding that "moment" will makes the turns more fluid and make the committment to edge engagment more solid.

G

[bushwacka]

Josh:

So what would be a good drill that you would suggest (either on-snow or off) that would help us get that movement?

Jim

here is the deal. I am basically a guppy in shark infested waters over here.  I do actually teach foot steering to some pretty great success not because I want to see people pivoting or skidding but because like I said in the PM to lynn that separation from hip socket is one of the most important aspects of good(to great) skiing. If you watch any top level coach, freerider , racer, bump skier or just bad ass recerational skier their hips are no moving with their skis as Lynn's are.

watching the 2 footed release drill done here i am guessing this as close the PMTS guy get to foot steering and in all honesty its very much like having someone ski a narrow lane(a very valid exercise to get separation). I know the separation in this video is being done passively or so you guys say but the separation and where is coming from is anything but passive.



the problem is in the entire PMTS rule book there is not a single drill that actually teaches that active separation. I will stand corrected if someone can steer me in the right direction because I am far from an expert on PMTS.

some drills that will help lynn acheive this separation.


basic

1000 steps with a focus on divergening steps. IE the tips point away from each other as you step. This is a great way to wake up that part of the brain and body to get the legs to start to lead us into the turn with the hip following, eventually we can even do these from a countered and angulated position.

a little less basic, but still pretty basic

silly christies. Statically learn to make a snow angel with your uphill foot. take that into a traverse and have the uphill skis pivot as you move. When I say pivot its is basically going to be flat on the snow and go from converging to diverging position. Once you have master this with both feet go ahead and take it in to medium radius turns while the inside leg does the sill christy as it goes from diverging to converging the entire way though the turn. I really like this because is really locks the hips into a place and teaches us to move each leg independently from each other. It creates active separation. once we have actively separated long enough it will become second nature or passive. Long enough could be as little as couple days with the right coach.


I know this goes against how your being taught, I also know some people will tell you even trying this will make you worse.  I personly feel I could easily 'fix" this problem. Heck I would even do for no charge. Not because what I am teaching is worthless but because I love to make people better and sometime the free lesson turn into more business.

BTW this is my first post as newly Minted PSIA-E DCL(Division Clinic Leader). Congrats to me!

 

[jim-ratliff]

BW:

First of all, congratulations. That's sounds like a classification that usually goes to "skiers with more experience".  Are you on the fast track to becoming a demo team member?

Second of all, thanks for being willing to share your knowledge in spite of the shark infested waters.  It is my sincere intent that no blood be spilled, that anyone should be able to say "this is how I would approach the problem" just as Max also did.

I will admit I was hesitant to ask the question because of where it might lead, I'm glad everyone responded with restraint.

As far as a drill that "teaches active separation" I don't know, but I would imagine that all of the PMTS instructors have drills or exercises that lead their students in the desired direction (I hesitate a bit, because I'm not sure that "active separation" is their goal, but CA/CB is.  And I think the real point of Lynn's other post is that doing drills isn't the same as doing drills correctly and with the focus that generates the most return.  Your response is much the same, and I imagine that you would select drills appropriate to the student.

What Lynn was working on, if I remember correctly, was exaggerated counter acting along with earlier tipping and edge engagement (and slower transition, so Gary was correct there). Whether she was doing it correctly only a coaches eye would say.  I would say that, after she dropped over that knoll and gained some speed, the hips and upper body became much quieter along with the shorter turns.

But the reason she posted the video was to get honest feedback, and I think BushWacka's observations were very helpful and accurate.

Jim

[Liam]

Bush,

any videos of the Silly Christies?  I am not quite visualizing that drill.

My ski guru is a fantastic foot steerer, and has this really neat 'slither' turn he uses to thread the tightest and nastiest spaces, he tells me it's all about hip separation and subtle foot steering.  1000 steps is the drill he calls the master drill for gaining a real feel for what it takes to get that level of hip independence.  Frankly, I have always struggled in executing that drill well (and consequently, lack the slithering hip separation he has).

Congrats on becoming a regional PSIA big wig!  That's a challenging accomplishment in the world ski pedagogy!

[LivingProof]

My thought watching Lynn's video was: She working on a specific drill, focusing on upper body, either counteracting and/or arm positioning. The movements appear very precise, the skiing is very controlled, not typical of the more relaxed skiing seen on the slopes. In the final few turns, it's easy to see the point where the drill ends and relaxation begins. I offer this not as a criticism of the skiing, but, an example of how we all function when concentrating on changing one aspect of technique. No change can occur in isolation, other body parts will react.

My experience is that counter-acting adds phenomenal turning power and is far superior to remaining centered or worst case rotating shoulders. Sequentially, it's easier to get the shoulders countered than the hips, both from a bio-mechanics standpoint and from an intellectual appreciation of the associated movements. I did like the simplicity of Diana's "look over your shoulder" concept, I'm a fan of keeping it simple. And, yes, I think the concept of separating the upper body from the lower at the hip sockets has value - had not thought of it that way. Lynn, I think your yoga work can help develop the flexibility needed to do this..and far easier than we rigid aging men.

My only other improvement offering is to just keep tipping the feet..more...more and more. It's the most basic PMTS movement, we all think we are doing it enough, video always proves our precipitations wrong. And flexing your legs a little more helps tipping.

Cudo's for having the strength to put skiing video up for comments. Listen to Diana first!

[Gary]

With all that's been said...I just wanted to add one comment....

I know the posted vidoe show's Lynn working specifically on a drill....Ive skied with Lynn and I think she skis much more fluid than this video represents.

I know many of us work on ways of improving our ski skills...opens more terrain for us to adventure into.
But I think it's important to note that to much work and not enough play just makes one think way too much about technique.

Having good sound foot work and body skills are important no matter what discipline you're using..BUT...being relaxed and fluid, finding a flowing motion within your skiing, letting the entire body work within the framework of your skill sets not only makes the body work more efficiently, more relaxed but creates that flowing fluid motion that's so beautiful to watch.

IMO...Having a fluid ski style where body and mind are relaxed and in sync, will take you places constantly focusing on drills just won't.

Congrats Bush....

[jim-ratliff]

IMO...Having a fluid ski style where body and mind are relaxed and in sync, will take you places constantly focusing on drills just won't.

Congrats Bush....

I agree on that as the goal.
However, let me pull a baseball example (I'm sure you have equivalent examples from golf).  The natural way to hit a baseball is to step forward into the pitch. In fact, you hear coaches telling their young kids to "step into the ball".  The reality is that if you step into the ball, you lengthen your stride and lower your eye level just as the ball is arriving in the hitting zone. Most adroit coaches now realize that lifting your front foot and then putting it back down in exactly the same spot is better guidance, and will result in better hitting once that becomes ingrained in your basic movement patterns.  But it's awkward looking while you unlearn the old and try to learn the new.

I think that's where Lynn (and I) are; there's nothing wrong with looking awkward and asking other's observations since the objective value of having other eyes watching can really help.  But I agree that sometimes we should just ski and enjoy.
 

[bushwacka]

My thought watching Lynn's video was: She working on a specific drill, focusing on upper body, either counteracting and/or arm positioning. The movements appear very precise, the skiing is very controlled, not typical of the more relaxed skiing seen on the slopes. In the final few turns, it's easy to see the point where the drill ends and relaxation begins. I offer this not as a criticism of the skiing, but, an example of how we all function when concentrating on changing one aspect of technique. No change can occur in isolation, other body parts will react.

My experience is that counter-acting adds phenomenal turning power and is far superior to remaining centered or worst case rotating shoulders. Sequentially, it's easier to get the shoulders countered than the hips, both from a bio-mechanics standpoint and from an intellectual appreciation of the associated movements. I did like the simplicity of Diana's "look over your shoulder" concept, I'm a fan of keeping it simple. And, yes, I think the concept of separating the upper body from the lower at the hip sockets has value - had not thought of it that way. Lynn, I think your yoga work can help develop the flexibility needed to do this..and far easier than we rigid aging men.

My only other improvement offering is to just keep tipping the feet..more...more and more. It's the most basic PMTS movement, we all think we are doing it enough, video always proves our precipitations wrong. And flexing your legs a little more helps tipping.

Cudo's for having the strength to put skiing video up for comments. Listen to Diana first!

I think anyone is flexiable enough to seperate at the hip joints. I do not think lynn is being limited by her body but how she is using it. You can tip all you want but untill the that tipping is coming from the hip joint and not the spine its is going to lead to alot of problems.  i also realize that is most likely a drill video and that whay it was so rigid. With that said I would place lots of money that her hips are aligned the same way in her normal skiing.

to have counter(CA) and angulation(CB)(2 things that we do teach and encourage as PSIA instructor because well its good stuff) you need seperation. I would love to see you guys teach this without teaching leg steering. The only real test would be give me on twin and Max another and see which twin ends up being better at skiing.

to prove my point and how sure I am that I am right.

Next season I have one free lift ticket for her.
Ill do an all day private outta of jacket for free.

that is sincerely a 900 dollar freebie.

the only catch is I want to film everything that happens. The only thing that is in it for me is showing my way is better. The PMTS will say she has alot to lose but I say there is so much to be gained because you can not carve a great turn with seperation at the hip joint.

[midwif]

Thanks for all the feedback!

I posted the video thinking it would be interesting to hear the different perspectives. And am having fun reading all the responses.
I think Josh's understanding of skiing has a lot in common with PMTS. Care to have a sip of koolaid?

And Josh is correct in identifying that it's not that I can't do CA, it's just that my body hasn't learned to make that movement in skiing. I have to THINK HARD about incorporating that movement on each turn. Not always successfully.

Gary and Bush are both right. I  have a stiff way of skiing when working on new skill sets. However, I am never very "flowly" looking (speaking bushwanese) like skiers I admire.

LP: You are also correct. While my hip flexors are my least flexible muscles, they are probably more flexible than most of you ( yeah Josh, I know, probably not you though )

Josh, your offer is VERY Generous and I will be in touch late fall to see if we can make a ski date.
And I admit that seeing a video example of Silly Christies would be helpful in imaging them in the minds eye.

Gary, as far as having fun, well that day Jim and I were having a blast!!
We were playing on a really fun trail, setting up shots, following each other with the camera, laughing and skiing and enjoying the sunny day.
And ultimately, hope to bring improved skills into next season powder filled bowls, glades and off-piste areas! (please ullr).

Jim and I will be taking a look at Essentials and ABCBES 2 this weekend to review pmts drills to help incorporate CA/CB.

Max 501; guess I will have to add Ski Flex to my PMTS library!

JBotti: I will try that drill next year. I actually printed that out and brought with me to try the first week out in Colorado (during conference week), but lost  it.
 
Things that I am happy about in this video;

There is more tipping here than I have ever been able to achieve before. I was able to flex and tip more than ever before.
I have never been able to see that much of my bases.

I have more upper/lower body separation than previously. I found the rudiments of CA with imperfect implementation. I am very grateful for all the feedback above.

Improved fore/aft; less back seat than in previous years. And I almost always feel when I am in the back seat and am able to correct.

I am pressuring the front of the skis more.

IF the day with Josh works out, the video will certainly be interesting to analyze!
Fun! And my ego can take the beating. I'll never be the skier I want to be, but I am already better than what I thought I could ever be!

Lynn
Lynn
 

[jim-ratliff]

Gary, as far as having fun, well that day Jim and I were having a blast!!We were playing on a really fun trail, setting up shots, following each other with the camera, laughing and skiing and enjoying the sunny day.

     Yeah.  What we didn't show was the "point of view" of one of us skiing behind the other and shooting video without ever looking at the viewfinder.  I had actually done this behind Lynn with my phone camera once before with reasonable success.  My aim this time was a little bit high, but I have decent pictures from the knee up.  Her videoing me was more challenging since she has trouble keeping up with me.  I'm just a blue dot somewhere out it front.
But the goal (and we will repeat it) is to film the other when we are "just skiing."

[dan.boisvert]

This thread is super cool.  I guess you can tell you've been on the internet too long when civil discourse like normal people with different opinions impresses you. 

Josh, congrats on your DCL! (I have no idea what that is, but it sounds impressive) --and super-generous offer!


Let me know if you guys need a videographer..

[jbotti]

This thread is super cool.  I guess you can tell you've been on the internet too long when civil discourse like normal people with different opinions impresses you. 

This why I and others enjoy posting and participating here. Jim and Lynn have done a great job of moderating this forum so that this "civil discourse" can and will continue!