Separation at the hip joint

[jim-ratliff]

Wow, so you just tighten up some muscles in the abs and legs. HH often describes that learning to relax certain muscles plays a major part in getting into big angles. Agree?

Mike, I think that's overly strong. I think BW's original question was fair, as was most of the discussion. Especially for a topic that has been at the center of so many acrimonious conversations elsewhere.

[jim-ratliff]

This thread really drives home Diana's comment about each person determining where their ski journey goes.

Max and John have a PMTS focus.

Josh has a different focus, in his skiing and how he makes a living from the ski industry.

Gary has his own focus and enjoys what he learned from JC on top of the PMTS foundation.

John Clendenin, I heard, was a black certified PMTS instructor, but then developed a different course of instruction.  And  its worth remembering Perry's wife, who had given up on skiing after taking a PMTS camp, until some private skiing  with Gary and a very positive lesson with John C opened the ski enjoyment door for her.  I would imagine that John could demonstrate CA/CB, but chose an approach that doesn't rely on those movements. It seems to me that drifting obviates some need for edges, and once you turn onto the face of the bump you have edges.

Not my way, but a valid way.

Just sayin'.  There is nothing wrong with any of those value or enjoyment systems.  The key is to be an educated consumer and make OUR choices for the journey we wish to pursue..

[midwif]

Josh
A good question asked, but as has been mentioned before, the
best place to get info on PMTS is on the PMTS forum.

Unless you are asking a rhetorical question and using it as a springboard
to discuss your methodology.

Tipping doesn't create upper/lower separation. It is the basic initiating movement taught to turn the skis.

CA/CB are generally taught later after more basic movements are being used by the skier.

As a skier who first learned to ski as an adult and was taught to stop and turn using wedge movements and weighting, I had to work really hard to "relearn" skiing.

CA/CB was never a focus in PSIA lessons I took.

It is very heartening to know that there are PSIA instructors( you) who can discuss and demonstrate upper/lower body movements in skiing.

Anyway, if you really do want to understand more of what PMTS methodology is about, the first place to start is in your head. You know, that open mind thing.

I agree with you that I need to connect my pelvis with my torso.
I have really fallen off the yoga curve. Though won't get near 10 hrs/wk until I retire!
Lynn

[jim-ratliff]

there is no one book since we are opened ended.

I know exactly what CA/CB are again watch the video, I posted as example of not sucking.

My issue is this, people like midwif need something more than your drills and doubt its takes a more flexible body have strong stable upper body. Except at the extreme ranges of motion.

i disagree.  Max and John (and maybe Helluva) are "living proof" that the PMTS drills get you there, but not merely the tipping drills by themselve.

[midwif]

Midwif will likely have a breakthrough when she connects her pelvis (hips) to the torso. John and I both had this breakthrough as a result of the on snow PMTS drills and dryland movements/stretching. I needed alot of dryland work.

Hey, I had my breakthru this year!
Wait, I get it, your talking about my NEXT breakthru!

[HeluvaSkier]

Hey, I had my breakthru this year!
Wait, I get it, your talking about my NEXT breakthru!

They all come together. When one movement improves, all the others must do so in order to compensate because PMTS is built on balance. Hence the SMIM. The question should always be "whats next."

[jbotti]

A rare look at the old Max. Wow he is light years from that skier today!!

[jim-ratliff]

Thanks Max.

Very worthwhile.

[HighAngles]

A rare look at the old Max. Wow he is light years from that skier today!!

I had no idea that was Max in that article.  Yep, light years...

[LivingProof]

Interesting Max ....without ever having skied with you ....you've determined I'm mainly a "Clendenin student"....

In my experience, Clendenin teaches to the non bump and off piste skier the easiest most effective way to learn skiing 3 dimensional terrain. His method with focus on pole touch, tip, drift and recenter on the uphill baby toe edge provides the 3 D skier with amazing turn shape and speed management in b ump, steep, deep and tight conditions. I've taught and seen the positive results of this.

Gary,
Just reading the above, many would conclude that JC is the predominant influence with respect to how you think about ski technique. In this forum, many times you have written about your upright, centered skiing method as a very efficient way of getting down just about any trail. I think you have differentiated "high carving" from "brushing" and I've seen you ski in both worlds. I would not change your skiing and certainly not your passion for being on a mountain..

I remember meeting you in Jackson, you wore a PMTS.org patch on your jacket and we discussing the influences that HH had on your skiing, including tipping. That was prior to many of the modern PMTS concepts (CA/CB) as described in Essentials of Skiing. Since then, your experiences with JC have expanded your thinking and improved your ability to ski the mountain via your own way.

Being an advocate for JC or Harb is different than being in lock-step. All the above is just a long way of saying that your skiing may be considered by others as Clendinish. Not a bad thing.

[Gary]

Hey Mike...thanks and I must agree in that JC's methods have made me a more efficient, less tired and worn out crud, bump and pow skier...I have NO doubt about that. You know the conditions we skied at Holimont with the pow and some of the narrow lines i skied on the DPS...very comfortable...no tight or tired muscles...just very relaxed. This is how I can ski 6 days in a row and still be ready to go again.

But as an example skiing with wife, Svend and family at Mr. Norquay, given the perfect carpet groomed snow we had and the amazing steeps, I was channeling HH all day long. Creating good angles, lot's of counter and movements right out of his book. Felt like a jet pilot ripn' turns until closing time.

So....I take great pride when I've had guys like Peter Kelty and an instructor who knows Harold having said to me...I can see a lot of HH movements in your skiing. I take great pride that I can apply the skills taught by HH and JC to me and use them wherever conditions will give me the longest, less fatiguing, happiest, most fun day on the mountain.

So yup....if you've seen me skied or any here that I've skied with...whatever anyone calls what I do....I'm loving it and like you Mike,  always looking for more ways to make me better.

Thanks my friend...g

[LivingProof]

Those concepts where covered way back in Book 2. Maybe even earlier.

Max is correct. I did a reread of Expert Skier 2 and the chapter "Complete Upper Body" introduces the concepts of separating the upper and lower body at the hips. HH also describes "counteracting" but I did not see the concept of counterbalance explained. There is a lot of material covered in that one section, including pole planting and arm positioning. It's worth a reread, but, the detail and introductory drills contained in Essentials is far more detailed both for CA and CB.

[Liam]

Those concepts where covered way back in Book 2. Maybe even earlier.

There were elements of CB/CA, but nothing like the obsession post Essentials.  Gary isn't the first to point this out...Paul Heyoka's recent inflammatory video posting ranted about the divergence of PMTS focus pre-and post Essentials (it's too bad he was so phlegmatic in his post because there was a lot to discuss in his video, and with one of the most vocal HH supporters of the past).   I can't help but Notice that Clendinnen who was on board (Black level) and Brooksbank (blue level, which is funny since he is a better skier than all those guys) back with the expert skier books, went a very different direction in the Essentials era.  Clearly, something in HH's focus changed (whether it was for the better or for the worse is up for debate--I have no input in that arena).

'Bush, what is the best way, in your experience, for Lynn or anyone to develop dynamic, powerful and supple upper/ lower body separation (especially in the hip joint)?  It's ok that you don't like HH's program, but I'm interesting in hearing your program.  It is clearly working for you, how about your students?

[Gary]

Hey guys...just got in from NYC....wife, I and friends went to see The Book of Mormon...fun weekend for sure.

Having skied with John I can only tell you the video's of skiing with students does not demonstrate in total John's skills using CA/CB. Having free skied with him on steep groomers to pow and crud he incorporates solid counter movements and upper lower body separation extremely well. John was also a world class freestyler and bump champion, so you gotta know he's got more moves than a Mississippi River Boat Gambler!

What I can affirm that we he teaches studentns for skiing bumps, pow, crud, and trees IMO requires so much less energy, complete speed managment and turn shape for those kind of conditions. I also have met friends and fellow students with both knee's replaced, some with hip replacements and they'll be out skiiing bumps all day long too.

For me it's not what John does or does not do, it's what he did for me and many many others. Simple, his system works too.

G

[Gary]

Max. John also has a great manual out available on line. His bump skiing methods have some primary principals, pole touch signals edge release of uphill  edge by tiping the down hill ski, then control is moved to the down hill big toe edge to drift or float to re-centering on the new uphill edge, (tip and scrape the new uphll edge in) all starting with very upright and relaxed, hips squared and staying with the chest and upper body, compression to effect power to the edges, and next pole plant, skis always connected to the snow, and extenision or JC likes to say, the Kiley stance, arms wide, tall and ready to start the next turn. I have to say there's soooooo much more than this short paragraph can describe, but like you posted for others, if you're truly interested in learing more about the ease to learn, simplicity and effectiveness of what he teaches for bump crud and pow skiing, you can buy the on line manual for $15 I think.

As you are a student of the art of skiing..reading and seeing both principals will at least shed some light on to  the concepts CSM teaches.

From my personal study and application, Clendenin paired with HH....there's no better teaching systems.

G