Separation at the hip joint

[bushwacka]

Simply put I think we can all agree that the great skiers separate their upper and lower body and the hip joint.  Not the spinal column, not the Sacroiliac joint but where the femur meets the hip. How do you guys achieve this though tipping alone? How do the expert PMTS guys achieve this?

You know my feeling on it. i feel the separation is an active conscious action.

[Gary]

Hey Bush...I'll jump in here...

IMO....all men should take Zumba lessons, or learn the Samba or Cha cha....men in general that I've worked with are too body stiff when it comes to skiing.

I like you think separation is an active conscious act....maybe even a rhythm your body gets into connecting turns...
One of my favorate thoughts is " dancing on the mountain"...I know sounds weird but if ya let the body relax (with visions and application of a good technique base) then that separation can occur...but ya gotta here the music.

Again I know that sounds weird but you can have all the technique skills in the world, but flowing down the mountain, separation of the upper and lower body is part of the dance from the feet up.

Mechanically speaking.... from my technical mind side, turning the head looking to the next turn, (skiing in the future) and solid pole plants help the skier find that upper/power body separation and rhythm.

G

[bushwacka]

I hate to start stuff here but turning are heads to start the new turn? that does nothing to start a turn. tipping starts a turn but if we do not seperate the legs from the hips then we can not remain balanced or quick with out turns.



I am anything but stiff and I think I know how to flow. I practice yoga at least 10 hours a week and can do some of the more advance stuff.

so your saying that separation just happens?

[bushwacka]

ehhh not buying anything. If someone wants to send me a copy Ill watch it.

so how does moving my pelvis going to cause my skis to turn. I look at skiing well as having a lack of pelvis movement since its form are base of movements and is part of the upper body.

[Gary]

Nope, separation doesn't just happen, what I'm saying assuming the skier has good tipping technique with the feet, counter balance, pole plants, looking ahead to the next turn assist and facilitate IMO upper lower body separation. You don't start a new turn by turning the head..for me it's the pole touch and tipping that start the new turn, turning the head keeps me skiing in the future....I want to ski where I'm going not where I've been.  You know that better than many skiing the tight tree lines you guys ski.

There's no twisting of the legs in my description Max....the moves I described are subtle and occur with strong tipping, counter movements and well timed and connected pole touches or plants.

I do agree with Max in that the pelvis is part of the upper body and should move with it.....many skiers I've been been around and see are too locked in and have a difficult time finding that ability to separate.

Nice Bush on the 10 hours a week Yoga...I too get my gym time....I do think that this all helps in strengthening the muscles that support counter movements and help get that feeling of separation...applyi ng that to skiing is where many have difficulty.

Max, your original question was how do Great PMTS skiers achieve that...

All I know at this moment in time is that good poles, foot tipping skills and counter work create the basis for upper/lower body separation...this rest to me, is about finding the rhythm.

G

[Gary]

Bush, forgive me for not asking..

How do you separate upper and lower body?

G

[bushwacka]

Gary

by making it happen from muscular movements in my legs and core actively letting my legs tip and twist to a desired out come.  I would say in the above video there are turns that are entirely done by countering against and letting the skis turn me and turns that are done by me turning the skis while still holding counter.

 

[Gary]

Hey Bush....some of the worlds best bump skiers do the same thing you just described and some of the best tree skiers I've ever seen do the same thing.

I find in certain situations in all mountains skiing I will use the same tool...

I must admit though I am a true hybrid....I apply both schools of turning when conditions allow and or demand it.

AND without question...both effective...BUT..in my humble opinion and experience, in specific terrain, one is more beneficial than the other. Having said that....I am of strong belief that there is NO perfect technique.....that the old, perfect and wrong techniques are still as much a part of skiing as the new ones...just more tools to make me the most versatile skier I can be.

BTW Bush, I just saw that video you posted...amazing, well done....I must admit i wish I had learned that early on in my skiing life...you looked very fluid and control, picking your line and not it picking you.  I will have to try that dolphin move next time I get in the bumps...a sweet tool indeed.

Great subject matter...g

[LivingProof]

Josh,

PMTS is about teaching body movements to get into angles. Some essentials are devoted to the lower body (tipping and flexing), others are devoted to the upper body ( counter balance, counteracting and no-swing pole plant ). The intent is to have the whole body work together and the upper body works independently of the lower. PMTS is not directly explained as the separation occurs at the hip, but, the concept of having level hips is included, but, it's getting into some of the finer points.

Turning the head counter to the direction of the turn will not start a turn. It will cause the shoulders to turn back up the hill and the intent is to let the student fell the shoulders turning in the proper direction.

Check out the following You  Tube HH video about counterbalance and counteracting to see the basic drills to teach body movements.



And, if you pm my your address, I will send you my personal copy of "Essentials of Skiing" - yours to keep with the understanding that you will study it. The guppy may just grow into a bigger fish! And, just saying, I'd love to be able to read the PSIA officially approved book about how to ski.

[bushwacka]

there is no one book since we are opened ended.

I know exactly what CA/CB are again watch the video, I posted as example of not sucking.

My issue is this, people like midwif need something more than your drills and doubt its takes a more flexiable body have strong stable upper body. Except at the extreme ranges of motion.

[Gary]

Interesting Max ....without ever having skied with you ....you've determined I'm mainly a "Clendenin student"....

In my experience, Clendenin teaches to the non bump and off piste skier the easiest most effective way to learn skiing 3 dimensional terrain. His method with focus on pole touch, tip, drift and recenter on the uphill baby toe edge provides the 3 D skier with amazing turn shape and speed management in b ump, steep, deep and tight conditions. I've taught and seen the positive results of this.

I have the most profound repsect for HH as he taught me so much about angles, tipping, flexing etc...certainly more than I ever learned from other teaching disciplines; awesome for where I use it and how I blend it into my current skiing.

So put your "mainly" into your own personal description.....whe re my mind is open to learning and gaining a variety of tools to use all over the mountain....you've have found your place happily with your specific training....very happy for you.

That's where we differ significantly...but hey....it's all about finding what works for ya.

G

[jbotti]

Midwif will likely have a breakthrough when she connects her pelvis (hips) to the torso. John and I both had this breakthrough as a result of the on snow PMTS drills and dryland movements/stretching. I needed alot of dryland work.

Josh, regarding the need for a flexible body. Age plays a role here. I have to stretch daily or I begin to tighten up to the point that CA/CB is very difficult to achieve on skis.

Agree that anyone that does the PMTS drills for CA and CB will have a major breakthrough as both Max and I have had. I also agree that flexibility is a big issue with CA and CB. Hip flexibility is just as important as back flexibility. Unfortunately running a lot tightens up and eventually locks up all hip flexibility. It took me about a year to gain that flexibility back (after running big mileage for over 20 years). Like Max I stretch mostly everyday and hip and back flexibility is a major focus.

I also agree that all high level skiing has quality CA and CB present. You just can't ski well at a very high level without it, especially off piste. I can also say that this is part of the reason I have no interest in attending a Clendenon camp. His CA in the videos is almost non existent and it is the same for the students. He may be teaching it and preaching it, but it just isn't in place in anyones skiing on the videos. I know I can't ski bumps without exaggerated CA and CB.

Lastly, I think there is a progression. In the PMTS world it just isn't worth much to work on other stuff until you can tip at a high level and initiate turns by tipping the LTE of the old stance ski. Typically it is tipping and flexing and CA and CB gets worked into the equation. But for someone that can tip and flex properly, CA and CB becomes the key to the next major breakthrough.

[Gary]

Max....when in school...I do what the teacher says...when he says demonstrate, I demonstrate the system. Had a great time with JC too. I find his system easy to apply and highly practical for 3D snow.

I don't profess to be the perfect PMTS student in my approach to my current skiing, same thing in CSM.....I don't advocate any style of skiing...I only can say what has helped me or what I've seen help others.

Max, trust me, I do use the movements you describe but also use other skill sets where and when conditions demand....pretty simple I think.

Clendenin understands PMTS and I think was Level 2 certified, but for whatever reason, he split and introduced his own concepts.

Anyways Max, it would fun someday to be able to make some turns with you. I know from the pic's you've posted you create some great body and edge angles.

I'd like to be able to think that guys like me, Bush, John, you, Lynn and other believers in "a skiing system", are tolerant enough to respect those that have developed ways to best suit their terrain choices, aggressiveness, their bodies ability to deal with those terrain choices and the big one...FUN factor.

Best as always, g 

[bushwacka]

I just want to be clear. Just because I am PSIA does not mean I believe in their system(which there is none anyways). I will never be aa yes man to anyone.

I am all for using what works which is kinda of the point of this post.

What happens in tight woods, where tipping to make you turn shape does not have a merit?

[LivingProof]

there is no one book since we are opened ended.

I know exactly what CA/CB are again watch the video, I posted as example of not sucking.

My issue is this, people like midwif need something more than your drills and doubt its takes a more flexiable body have strong stable upper body. Except at the extreme ranges of motion.

Josh
Go back and read the OP where you asked how PMTS teaches CA/CB. Asked and answered in several posts. If you don't have the curiosity to do detailed research, don't ask for a few lines in a post. If you want to put down HH skiing as lame, then why ask how or what he teaches.  If skiing is an open book, then you have to keep an open mind.

Wow, so you just tighten up some muscles in the abs and legs. HH often describes that learning to relax certain muscles plays a major part in getting into big angles. Agree?

So here's your problem, you are now the man and will have to lead instructor level clinics. It's you who needs to offer a concise answer that works for everyone. Far easier said than done. Come back next year and tell us about the flexibility of the average part-time PSIA instructor. When I talk with our local PSIA instructors, most know nothing about CA/CB. Generally, you are in attack mode when discussing the instruction concepts of your peers, so give us an outline of how you will teach CA/CB. Turn about is fair play.