Boot shell fit criteria

[Svend]

Keep in mind that each boot will affect your fore/aft and lateral alignment differently.

Gary's lateral alignment will definitely be affected when we do the shop crawl in Banff 

[Gary]

Hey Jim....you know me well.."have drummel will travel"...in this case....there's an alert at the border that restricts me from entering Canada with that tool...

Just have to make due I guess...

Shop CRAWL....eek.... As long it's puncuated by a nice cold glass of lemonade! 

Max's point is well taken....I've always felt that my stance, balance and that feeling of being stacked is when buckled up, letting the knees relax, hands in pole ready position, I feel right over the top of my arches with equal pressure on the tongue and back of the boot.

Still so many other variables to consider but I think that's another must factor to consider.

Ok gang.....I just might need a boot intervention....qui ck...I need all your phone numbers!     G

[HighAngles]

The Inferno 130 stock liner has a design "flaw" with the seam where the upper plastic cuff meets the lower portion of the liner.  Everyone I know that skied that boot had the same problem (including PhilPug and Segbrown).  It got so bad for Segbrown that she replaced the liners with DFP brand Intuitions.

[LivingProof]

I have found that liners are typically shorter than the inside of the shell which makes a proper shell size feel too small. So I stretch the toe box of my liners before the 1st use. Usually takes quite an effort with the Heads as they are fairly beefy liners.

Wow, the above hit me like a ton of bricks. Never even thought about the aspect of liner length being short and may need stretching. When I tried on boots this winter with the intent on downsizing, the tips of my toes just crunched the boot front and no way would I consider going through the pain to ski them.

Max, thanks for the thought. It will expand my thinking next time I go boot shopping.

[jim-ratliff]

But it may be worthwhile to put the liner on when not in the shell. My feet always felt tight in the Head Liners, even when they were out of the shell. I think it was a smaller liner and the stretch material around the toe.
When I upgraded to ZipFit, I told Diana I could use just a bit more room in the front, and she could see through the translucent shell that there was space in front of the liner.
My toes are MUCH more comfortable with the ZipFit. Don't know whether it's the lower volume liner, or a slightly larger liner, or it molded better when heated -- whatever, it worked.

[Svend]

Good tips -- thanks guys.  My wife's Langes may benefit from a liner stretch on one foot which is a tiny bit longer than the other.  A shell punch helped a bit on that boot, but she could still use a bit of room there.  This is something I will try before next season. 

[HighAngles]

When I first discovered the issue of the "short lasted" liner in 2001 I got pissed - really pissed.  I felt like I was basically being ripped off and I was even more mad at the boot fitter for not pointing this problem out.  I was amazed to learn that many (if not most) manufacturers short last their liners.  Why?  They say that it's so that the liner doesn't accidentally bunch at the toe during the production process (when the liners are put into the shell before packing and shipping).  I think it's a bunch of crap.

The problem I had with that short lasted liner is what started my journey toward always using a replacement liner that better fits my foot and the shell.  I have many pairs of brand new stock liners sitting in a bag in my basement.

[Svend]

Lange is claiming that they make a "true lasted liner" for their upper end boots.  Does this mean no short lasts, or is it just marketing babble?

[HighAngles]

Svend - that's actually true.  In recent years some of the manufacturers have actually gotten a clue about the problem with short lasted liners.  I can't recall off-hand the ones that have improved in this area, but Lange definitely is one of them.  The new Lange boots are really nice.  Their new shell shape fits my foot much better and it was a close race between Lange and Head for my purchase decision last season.

[HighAngles]

Do you find that the replacement liners are all sized properly or do you go up a size?

Max - most of the time I do upsize my liners one full size.  I have always done this for Intuition liners and also did it for my first two ZipFit liners, but my most recent ZipFit liners (purchased through Harb's shop) are actually matched to the shell size.  I really thought they would end up being too tight, but Chris B. convinced me that once everything came together I would be happy with the result and I have to admit he was right.  I think the main reason was that I had downsized another shell size with the Raptors and going with the smaller ZipFits helped me get into those shells without needing any shell work.

[Svend]

Quick update here.  Tried some boots at a few Calgary shops today, including boot guru Lou  from Epic (all 130 flex, 98mm):

Nordica Girish, Doberman shell all-mtn. boot.  Pros:  excellent fit all around, esp. in the heel pocket which is cupped nicely around the heel holding it very snugly in place; snug all over; no pressure points; they felt like they were made for my feet.  Cons:  at 130, this boot feels about the same stiffness as my Tecnica 110's, at least in the warm indoors.  For this reason, I don't see much of an upgrade here, despite the best-in-test fit.  Will try to find a race-type Dobie to see if it's any stiffer.

Salomon Falcon.  Pros: exceedingly snug fit in the cuff, heel and instep.  Cons:  Fit in the rest of the boot was kind of all over the map; too low in the toe box; too stiff, too little range of motion, even in a warm shop; alignment felt odd, like they made me bowlegged.  Weird overall fit - there are better options for me.

Tecnica Bodacious.  Josh was right, this boot is is junk.  Nothing much good to be said about it.  Felt like a 100mm shell; same stiffness as my Inferno 110's; weird forward flex pattern; cheap materials.  Very disappointing from Tecnica.

Head Raptor RS.  Tried these at Lou's shop.  Pros:  almost perfect fit all over, esp. in heel and forefoot; stiffness felt just right (again, with the caveat of being indoors); very nice flex feel; good range of motion; great power strap.  Cons: instep too low, but Lou said he could easily fix it; slightly less snug in the lower cuff than I would like, but I assume this can be fixed with moving the buckle and perhaps shaving a bit off the lower flap.  Not sure I like the fish spine buckles....kinda fussy to handle.  So far, this was the best of the bunch.  Had almost everything going for it.   And they don't seem as heavy as the Raptors from a few years ago.  Nice.

Will check out some more shops in Banff in the coming days.  But tomorrow is a ski day at Louise.  Can't wait! 

Cheers,
Svend

[HighAngles]

Svend - I actually like the spineflex buckles on the Raptors.  For whatever reason, when I had tried 2-piece boots before I got the Raptors, the typical buckles would accidentally re-catch on the macro ladders when I was taking the boots off.  This happened to me a number of times and I felt like I almost broke my foot once cause I thought all the buckles were undone when I was removing my boot.  I've never had this happen with the spineflex.  Whether or not the spineflex buckles actually do what Head says is debatable.

[HighAngles]

Another comment on instep height - be careful about being misguided in this fit area due to your current footbed and also the liner.  A good ski boot fit is the marriage of a shell, liner, and footbed.  I can't tell you how many combinations I've experimented with over the past few years.  My wife would tell you it's endless and that her husband is insane.  My current footbeds that I use in the Raptors have been ground down and the sides shaved so that they have barely any volume.  There's just enough left of them so that they still can get their job done.

[Svend]

Thanks guys.  Nordica says the Girish is derived from the Doberman shell, but in all mtn. incarnation.  Shockingly soft flexing, for a boot from that lineage.  But if the race-derived Doberman has the same fit, but the flex of the Raptor, then it should be an excellent match.  The Girish was the best fit of the bunch, but was softer than my present boot, so a no-go for me.  I will try to find a proper Doberman.  Failing that, the Raptor was a very close second in fit.  Excellent snug fit all around.

H-A, thanks for the info on the Raptor.  It has some appealing features -- the flex and forward lean adjust, the booster strap, spiney buckles.  As for instep height, I'm not too worried about it being too low, as that can probably be easily fixed.  But too high....not so good.

Just got to Banff today, and will try some more boots in the coming days. 

Cheers,
Svend

[Svend]

OK -- thanks Max.  I was just going by what a bootfitter told me, that a low instep was no problem to work on.  If that is an issue, then going with a tech knows what he's doing will be key.

FYI -- tried a Lange RS130, and it was way too tight in the midfoot area.  Good elsewhere, esp. in the heel, achilles and cuff areas.  This one might be a contender if a good fitter can punch those areas out.

I happened to browse through a 2013 Atomic catalog yesterday in a shop, and spotted an interesting looking race boot called the Redster.  This has a carbon spine, three replaceable sole plates of differing stiffness, and, most interestingly, a flattened lower part of the inner boot where the foot contacts the side of the shell.  This is supposed to help with edge grip and ski control.  A very interesting looking boot, and some innovative technology in there.  This is Atomic's press release:


Redster Pro 130:
With the new Redster, all athletic skiers will profit from pure World Cup performance: the Redster reacts more sensitively to the terrain, steers the ski more precisely and accelerates it more explosively than any other boot. Its all-new carbon spine is extra-rigid, supports the heel precisely and makes quick edge switches easier without limiting the sensitivity of the forefoot. What?s more, this boot can be adapted to precisely fit your racing discipline, personal  preferences and external conditions. For example with the exchangeable Flex Frames. These offer three degrees of firmness to choose from: Soft (yellow; for long, fast turns), Medium (white; for medium turn radiuses) and Hard (black; for short, fast turns).

Another worldwide first is Rotational Power Control: an adjustment mechanism that lets you adjust the cuff inward or outward to create an individualized setup that goes with your riding style and personal preferences. The Redster Pro 130 is the top-line model for all skiers looking for pure performance: the only differences between this and Marcel Hirscher?s original boot are its flex and last width.