Technique for steep crud?

[LivingProof]

I've stayed away from this thread because I don't ski 40 degree slopes, icy or not. I do know that if you don't have the technique at the start of a run, you are sure not going to find good technique in the middle of a 40 degree icy run. Personally, I'd try to hike down, as, I hope to never take a "toboggan" ride again.

On the subject of hop turns, the following is from a recent Epic thread about an extreme skiing class at Whistler. I've no idea how the various "Steep and Deep" camps teach technique to students, and, the author did not explain what is a "hop turn" (and the devil is in the details), but, that turn was used at the start of the program and prior to entering steeps.

Intermediate that I am, I will say no more on the subject, the participants in this thread are big people who can speak for themselves very well.


Last week I traveled with my ski club to Whistler and took the Extremely Canadian Steeps Clinic.  http://www.extremelycanadian.com/  I have to say that it was the most challenging and thrilling 2 days in my 41 years of skiing.  I truly believe I came away a better skier, especially on the steeps where we spent most of our time.
 
Day One we started out on Whistler Mountain.  The clinic is like most ski schools with a warm up run and then a ski off on a black diamond bump run where you are broken into small groups with a max of 4 per class + coach. This is also where  they will shake out the skiers they feel are not ready to tackle the true steeps.  I guess I did ok as I was put into the top group with just one other skier.  Our Coach was Derek Foose.  Some folks have said that I am one of the best skiers they have skied with, but this guy is the BEST SKIER I have ever had the pleasure to ski with.  He starred in a Warren Miller movie a couple years back "Children of Winter".  The segment about sailing to Iceland and then skiing off the coast.  Anyway for the next two days he was our best friend and coach.
 
He did do some drills with us early on to make sure we could do hop turns and had good control of our edges.  Then he led us to one double black run to another.  Some were real hidden gems with untracked, days after the last snowfall.  After lunch they took some video of us skiing to be viewed the next day and then generally wore us out.  In a good way as there were no "hero" runs to get your mojo back, you had to be on.  When we finished at 3:30 I was exhausted.
 
The next day we started up Blackcomb Mountain with a stop at their on mountain hut to view the videos from day one.  It is amazing how a little video can reveal so many flaws.  The rest of the day we worked on those flaws.  My main one was keeping my hips more forward and my partner needed some work on pole plants.  Easy to do on mellower terrain but when the hill gets to 45% and beyond, it is easier said than done when you are in survival mode.  As the day progressed he ramped it up to include a couple of unofficial triple black runs like Hawaii 5 0 and Bushrat.
 
Day 2 ended with a free apres ski with drinks and snacks plus a souvenir t-shirt.  IMHO the $400 cost for 2 days was well worth it  I was guided safely to parts of Whistler / Blackcomb that I never would have found myself, or had the guts to ski by myself.  I know that I came away a better skier with more confidence on the super steeps.  I have also discovered that even though I am a pretty good skier, especially for my age at 58, Derek Foose is as far beyond what I can do just as I am beyond the skill levels of a beginner.  I was truly in awe watching him ski.
 
So if you are headed to Whistler and have an adventurous spirit, I would strongly suggest you take this clinic.  You won't regret it.

[ToddW]

I've never skied with another PMTS skier, because they don't really exist in Europe)

Johnny2R,

Try to hook up with Jasper Heinsius at Portes Du Ski.  He runs a year-round ski deck in the Netherlands and also teaches some ski weeks in the Alps.  Jasper is a highly competent PMTS skier and instructor and an all-round great fellow.  He's also handy with a video camera.   (Alternatively, sign up for one of the Hintertux Harb camp sessions this April.  Last I heard there were still a few openings.)

http://www.sneeuwsportleraar.nl/
http://www.portesduski.nl/

[Johnny2R]

Todd, thanks for that. Actually Portes du Ski have been on my radar for some time now, mainly from the point of view of getting my alignment and footbeds sorted, but I've not yet had the chance to get over and see them. I must do so before too long.

[Johnny2R]

I've stayed away from this thread because I don't ski 40 degree slopes, icy or not. I do know that if you don't have the technique at the start of a run, you are sure not going to find good technique in the middle of a 40 degree icy run.

I think I should perhaps have stayed away from it myself, as it's taken a bit of a drift (albeit a very interesting drift) away from my original intention! Probably my fault for describing rather poorly at the start what I was after - which, fundamentally, is a type of easily learned, albeit possibly exhausting, turn which can get a skier without high level carving skills, down occasional patches of difficult terrain. I was interested in the types of turns mentioned in 'Ski The Whole Mountain', and wanted to see some video showing these kinds of turns in action. As Max has pointed out to me, though, Eric Deslaurier only advocates the use of these in very constrained circumstances. I've got a lot to work on...

[Liam]

Geoff! Welcome Sir. Great to finally have the contributions of another skilled skier here.

Liam,
This all needs to be said... and I hope you don't take it the wrong way, because I would love to have the opportunity to share turns with you someday, and I don't want to ruin that opportunity if it ever presents itself [I truly mean that]. I will never try to change how you ski, or your viewpoint on ski technique. You will ski how you ski, and progress how you want to progress. Gary will back me up on this: I have strong opinions on technique, but I do not push them on those who are simply out to enjoy the mountain and the company it brings. I would never take issue with that, or try to take it away from anyone. I'm out there for the same reason as you - I love to ski, and I love to share the mountain with friends.

What I do take issue with is when an inferior skier who knows very little about expert technique, and cannot demonstrate expert technique, misleads other skiers on the subject of technique. What is worse is when this is pointed out to the individual doing the misleading, and they still persist. As I told Gary and LP recently, PMTS is an avenue to great skiing... it IS NOT a "way to ski". Is it the best/easiest avenue? I think so. Other great skiers may have different avenues, but what they don't disagree with are the results of my route when they see them. If a skier gets to the same place, or beyond, with a different method - great! I won't discredit that skier because their path was different. My skiing and coaching however, is the result of the combination of fitness, PMTS, and an understanding of ski performance and use that most will never comprehend. My skill set is unique, and it does serve a purpose. I walk the talk.

So lets talk hop turns. I will ignore the shortcomings of the exercise that I have already highlighted.

Can I hop turn? Uh, Yes.
Will I, if faced with the need? You bet.
Why would I use a hop turn? Because I **** up a prior turn and needed to get it back, or I was faced with a serious issue.
Do I practice it, or even consider it a technique that I need to develop? Never.
Why? Because I don't need it and they are too much work without any ski performance payoff.

The lack of need is they big key that you're missing. Do I understand every word of what you have posted? Yes I do. Can I ski like you, on the terrain you ski on? Yes, there is no doubt. Would I choose to ski like you do on that terrain? Never. Can you ski like me? Got video? I've gone from beginner to expert with [mostly] self coaching. I know how to go from beginner to expert - I did it - on my own. I can repeat and re-engineer it. What you need to recognize is that there are skiers who live in a totally different reality from you, the best skiers you know, and possibly the best skiers you have ever met. A level exists far beyond what you see in the best skiers on the mountain every day. A few think of that level of skiing as their reality; their home base; their normal. What you may consider a necessary technique, is a bail-out maneuver to that same few... Something they use before they "start skiing", which translates to "start linking good [expert] turns."

Respect those skiers. They will offer the same respect to you in return. They are skiers who know far more than you, and they are more accessible than you might imagine. I personally don't care if you listen to them or not, but do not steer others away from great skiing because of your own limitations, bias, or misunderstandings.

I am a student of great skiing, regardless of the origin. I advise that you not postulate as a teacher, but as someone who is keen to learn. If you are not keen to learn, then at least allow others to learn to apply what you refuse to or are not interested in.

The skill set I possess makes me an absolute nightmare to poseurs [when it comes to technique I make Josh (BW) look like a happy-go-lucky fellow]. Unlike Max, or HA, or Goeff, or jbotti, I am not subtle, I will blatantly show what you don't know, I will expose what you don't know to your avid readers, and I won't leave it up to their interpretation to draw an opinion. Those who have skied with me [many from this forum] know that I am not exaggerating even slightly. Do not read this as a threat (I wouldn't, unprovoked, publicly dismantle another skier's technique/understanding to prove a point), but I do ask that you understand the point of view.

Do not quote to respond. Do not respond in red as you did to Geoff [sorry, that was the welcome you endured Geoff, hope you stick around]. Do not respond. Take it in Liam. Learn something that will take, if not your skiing, but at least your understanding and respect for others' knowledge to a level that you don't currently possess.

Guess what?  You Don't get to tell me how to respond, or what color to use. 

 Now, Have I questioned your skill or the skill of any skier on this site??  Nope.  Have I questioned that you could ski things differently or better than other posters??  Nope.  You're putting arguments in my name that I have NEVER made.  All I have said, and frankly, it's the SAME thing you, geoffda, deslaurier, etc have all said:  There are situations that warrant a hop or two.. I've added the secondary idea (along the same lines as Deslaurier and any other steep camp type instructor) that for skiers who do not possess the kinesthetic awareness of You and are not as advanced on their journey through ski skilll acquisition they might want to try a few hop turns and get comfortable with the balance etc involved to pull them off when required.   That hardly deserves the response and the over the top defensiveness that I've got from the PMTS cabal.  Have I doubted that your method of skiing is beneficial, worthy, and worth pursuing???  Nope.  Have I endeavored to give ski skill advice to someone better than me? Nope.

As for my skiing vs. yours-You're a solid skier and I hold my own, and I get better every season.   I ski with guys regularly who do things on skis neither of us can (and I mean that)-so what?   An intermediate skier asked about a quick method of navigating steeps and crud.  I suggested Hop turns, and from that I now need a reeducation from the great grand pooh bah of western, NY blue groomers and to pursue a thoughtful soul-searching meditation on posting about ski technique.  Truth is, you didn't offer any advice to Johnny 2r (and few others did at all) but only got up when someone mentioned a well-traveled, fairly sensible option. 

So you know what?  I'm going to keep posting, and if you want to put up contradictory advice (or what you think is contradictory, since you've pretty much stated the same opinion I have) go for it-you're a worthy contributor. Honestly the only difference between us, is that I think it's worth it to have a few special maneuvers in your back pocket for those exceptional moments (which we ALL, as you've suggested, face sooner or later). 

[HeluvaSkier]

video links of Liam skiing removed.  Bushwacka got banned for posting links of Jbotti.  If people want movement analysis, then they need to post it themselves.  Posting video of someone else to belittle them isn't within the "respect your fellow skiers" guidelines.

 

Liam, the fact that you took a swipe at my skiing only indicates how little you truly know about ski technique. Your skiing removes all question about your level of understanding of skiing. Bottom line - you have no business telling people how to ski.

However, I should congratulate you. You have just driven another person away from this forum.

[Johnny2R]

Heluva, it will be a shame if you leave the forum, as your understanding of advanced skiing technique is a valuable asset to everybody here.  I do think you've got the wrong end of the stick here, and I'm not sure why. Remember, it says here:

"Opinions will vary -- but comment on the topic, not the person."

You did not follow this, and made what appeared to me to be a wholly gratuitous personal attack on Liam - who, to my mind, has certainly not taken a swipe at your skiing (although you've taken more than a swipe at his). I don't think anyone will be surprised that he answered back the way he did.

I could understand it a little more, if not condone it, if he had been saying something controversial, such as suggesting some basic flaws with PMTS, for example. But he wasn't, he was only suggesting that for him, on top of his PMTS-based skiing, there are certain particular situations where he finds something of a hop turn to be advantageous. There is nothing in that which is going to confuse a reader and take him or her down a non-PMTS path (and I speak as the target reader).

If you feel strongly that this is a dangerous and misleading message to put across, instead of an ad hominem attack you would make a far more persuasive argument by showing some video of high-level PMTS skiing, by yourself or some other PMTS ninja, skiing in tight trees in the kind of situation Liam feels he needs his hop turns for.

[Gary]

He guys....I've skied with Greg and have never had a harsh word exchanged about ANYTHING! He's always been a gentlemen and only offered comments if asked.

What bothers me here is that I hate to see negative comments about anyone or around anyones skiing. I know I have offered advice but only to respect to what I have experienced and what has worked for me. Also, if you ask on this site, you're going to get an assortment of thoughts and ideas...it's what we all do.

There are guys here that may be great technical skiers, there are guys here now and in the past that ski lights out any line, any where, any conditions. That's what makes ski talk interesting....we have different and maybe similar prospectives.

What we all need to do is step back and realize we all bring something to the table....we are all brothers in a sport we absolutely have a great deal of passion for.

I should also say if someone asks an opinion of ones skiing, there's probably going to be a variety of comments on how technical it is. But there is that other side, the side that brings out that happy place in us...in Greg I've seen after he's just ripped 50 turns in 300 feet, Mike skiing tight sweet carves, Svend skiing his first black bowl....we all have that skiers spirit that keeps us on snow, for as long as we can.

There's no need to challenge anyones ability...just doesn't make sense...we all have strenghts and weaknesses but....we all bring something to the table...period!

Sharring great moments skiing with friends like we did at Holimont...11 of us...all different levels...all having so much fun. Learning from each other more than just skiing.

  Best,  g

[Svend]

Gary, Johnny -- well said, both of you. 

I would like to add something of an observation, and yet another call for mutual respect, humility and courtesy.  In recent months I have perceived a tone of condescension and a haughty superiority from some members here, which is usually accompanied with a comment like "If he were an expert skier...."; or "Only true experts ski like this...."; or something similar.  First of all, I find that kind of talk exceedingly narrow minded and arrogant, as if the writer were somehow qualified to judge what is or what is not expert skiing.  In the almost complete absence of context and a firm basis upon which to make such judgments, these statements are absurd and should be dismissed out of hand as ridiculous and insignificant.  Best to be ignored, in other words. 

Secondly, these same writers seem to assume that others here either perceive themselves to be, or at least aspire to be, expert skiers.  Again, how absurd.  Most of us here seem to be pretty self aware and know that we are not at that level, and will likely never reach it.  Nor can we, or want to, devote the time and energy to needed to achieve that.  Speaking personally, I certainly don't feel that way.  I have children to raise, a business to run, and a myriad of other interests and hobbies that make my life rich and full.  Skiing is a great passion of mine, but it is NOT the central focus of my life.  How shallow, if it were true.  I have greater priorities in my life.  That said, it really gets my hackles up when someone posts here and insinuates an attitude that suggests otherwise.  Its especially riling when they make statements such like their way is somehow superior, and anyone who does not fit into that narrow definition is somehow not worthy of an opinion, or even worthy to contribute advice and counsel to others. 

A little bit of perspective, please.  It's just a sport.  And for most of us it's a recreational pastime, not a career or a profession (with no disrespect intended to the actual professionals here, you lucky buggers  ).  Let's all keep that in mind.

Cheers, and have fun out there folks.

[Gary]

Thanks Svend...more words from the heart!

After deliberate thought, I've determined.....18" of blower pow is my "central focus"   

The kids, the business, and all the rest of that.....my recreational pastime!...

Hmmm...I may need to have my 'bubble re-centered" (Terrylism)

BANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN NNNNNFFFFFFFFFFFFFF !  (coming soon)

[dan.boisvert]

Mine might be an unpopular opinion, but I think we screw over the community as a whole when we drive away those who have much to offer it.  This is a ski forum.  I'm not an equal contributor to Max_501, HeluvaSkier, epic, bushwacka, etc.  My contributions are worth approximately nothing in comparison with theirs, because about all I have to offer is conjecture and the subjective opinion of a hack skier.  These folks have significant experience from which we can all benefit, irrespective of which approach(es) we follow with regard to instruction.

Are my trip reports equal to theirs?  I guess they could be more entertaining or relatable to the average skier.  Am I going to try to argue technique with them?  Absolutely not, and I think it would be disrespectful for me to try.  I think it's disrespectful for an intermediate who just read one of HH's books to pick a fight with a top-level PSIA pro on Epic, and I think it's disrespectful for the reverse to happen, too.  When you ski with people in real life, it's quickly obvious who has room to talk and make technique recommendations to others, and who really ought to keep his mouth shut on a given day and with a given crew.

I've been very fortunate to spend a goodly amount of time skiing with some incredibly good skiers, and I've been continuously amazed at how generous they are with their time and energy.  When I have the opportunity to learn from such people via the internet, I'm certainly willing to overlook a periodic rant or whatever, because their contributions net out to be so overwhelmingly positive.

I've also been a pro who's had rank amateurs try to argue with him about technique, and understand quite well how maddening it is.  When people don't know what they don't know and are too dumb to shut up about it, it can really **** off the people to whom it's blatantly obvious.  I'm pretty forgiving toward pros who get fed up and decide to stop holding back on the amateur in question.  The way I see it, if you're going to start calling people out, you'd better have the skills to back up every word you say.

I suppose, if all you want is a place to talk about whatever floats your boat, it doesn't much matter if it turns into the home of the mediocre but polite.  Personally, I'm interested in learning stuff, too.  Learning about skiing from people roughly on my own level is a severe case of the blind leading the blind, and I'm not terribly interested in that when there are much better alternatives available.


I think Svend makes a good point about absolute statements, though--it can be confusing sometimes to determine, for example, whether people are talking about an Expert Skier in the PMTS context, a generic "expert skier", or something else.  It can be difficult to remind yourself continuously of the perspective of each writer when you're reading a stack of posts from different authors all on top of each other.  I think we might avoid some misunderstandings if we all tried to specify which one we meant when we used terms like that.

[Liam]

Man, I missed a lot in a few days.

I am typing on an iPhone so forgive the typos.  First off, unless you've been banned no one has been driven away.  If someone chooses not to post, that is their decision.  No one makes them go. Individuals makes decisions and act them do to reasons that are entirely their own.

 Secondly, and this is at the crux of the matter, I don't believe there was a technique argument: no one was offering MA (And I'd never give any as I acknowledge I'm not really savvy about that sort of thing) and I don't think I've ever countered any of the 'experts' listed by Dan B. on that sort of ski analysis (it's their bag after all).

Obviously, when someone starts a thread they are soliciting a widely broadcasted response.  If someone only wants the ideas of any one person, send them a PM. Seems easy enough, right?

And then Sift through what comes in, engage it if that is your fancy or don't. 

Now,  thought on 'unassailable' expert hood. I don't believe that Daron Ralves or JP Auclair are regular contributors here.  Those guys are experts...but you know what? if they chose to participate on an Internet forum, I'd engage them directly, too, because dialectic is the real joy and benefit of an open global forum and uniform, one way pontificating is the ultimate dead end.

Oh, and it seems a video of me was posted (and pulled down).  I appreciate the moderators actions here, in that, yes, I am not interested in broad MA at this time--but, I don't really mind folks seeing videos of my skiing from the past (or present)-it's in the public domain, after all.

 I suspect it was this one from two years ago (the most recent one I got, I don't really do MA videos--just quick snippets when someone lends a camera:

   

Man watching that vid I think of two things: 1. I don't look half bad (it was a cold, firm, blue groomer with a good sunshine on my back..who doesn't like that?)-and it's fairly representative of how I was skiing that season, I was really into the whole 'stacked' and tall position then (still am, I suppose).  and 2. I've had a good two years of improvement since then..heck, I just watched some of the videos on my vimeo site that were made back in 2004-2005 (there's one from Red Mountain and an early one from Tahoe somewhere)-both good trips (I wish I had more video now)-and I'd love to ski those runs now.  I must admit, the last 8 years of skiing have been productive.  What a pleasant little trip down memory lane.

And, back to the actual topic of the thread:  Do you guys have preferences for the type of skis you like in Steeps??  I'm thinking, except in deep crud or powder, a narrower ski, medium flex with a softer tail (so I can feather and not augur in)--though, some say a stiffer, flat tail is better in true steeps...I admit, I don't really have enough experience to have a full-fledged opinion.  On a non-podwer day what is the Ideal Jackson/ Snowbird/ Taod ski (insert other steep mountains of your choice here, but these are the three I've been to!)?

[Svend]

And, back to the actual topic of the thread:  Do you guys have preferences for the type of skis you like in Steeps??  I'm thinking, except in deep crud or powder, a narrower ski, medium flex with a softer tail (so I can feather and not augur in)--though, some say a stiffer, flat tail is better in true steeps...I admit, I don't really have enough experience to have a full-fledged opinion.  On a non-podwer day what is the Ideal Jackson/ Snowbird/ Taod ski (insert other steep mountains of your choice here, but these are the three I've been to!)?

Liam, for me it's all about trust.  I'm comfortable on a ski that will hold me and not let go, so I can relax and focus on technique.  That means solid edge grip, so high torsional stiffness.  Softer tip and tail are definite pluses, but overall I like a burly ski (I'm not a small guy, so that's a natural fit for me).  I have no experience with rockered skis, so can't comment there, other than to say I have no trouble with a flat tail and I like the feeling of having solid support back there. 

Edit:  I should add that I like an even flexing ski, with no surprises.  Particular skis that I own or have owned and like for steeps:  Nordica Mach 3 and Fischer RC4 Progressor (the original one) for hard snow and ice; Dynastar Mythic Rider for soft snow and crud.  I expect my new Sultan 94's to be good as well.

Turn radius is not a big deal for me, as a long radius ski with a softer tip can be easily brought around in a tight arc with a bit of mustard.  As many of the steeps I get into have a lot of crud/broken snow, having a solid crud buster is also important -- a ski that is not easily deflected and bounced around. 

Hope this helps...

[Gary]

Liam....describe narrow.....

For me steeps on a groomed and hard pack, a ski that has a 16m turning radius or less, agile, energy.

Same pitch, crud to boot high.....84 underfoot, similar turning radius, a bit softer, more forgiving, easy to scarve, but still carves, soft enough to absorb bumps.

Same pitch and all pitch, above boot, 105...Rev's   

All the above skis for me have either early rise or some tip rocker....but me...I prefer for their performance and versatility....flat tail.

ps Liam...very nice turns!

[dan.boisvert]

First off, unless you've been banned no one has been driven away.  If someone chooses not to post, that is their decision.  No one makes them go. Individuals makes decisions and act them do to reasons that are entirely their own.

I think you're deluding yourself if you think the community has no role in this.  It can be gracious and grateful for the pro bono assistance of its better-educated and more experienced members, or it can be obnoxious and make their lives less pleasant.  Would you keep answering questions about First Aid or running sleds if I, knowing very little about either topic, argued with you every time you did it?

Secondly, and this is at the crux of the matter, I don't believe there was a technique argument: no one was offering MA (And I'd never give any as I acknowledge I'm not really savvy about that sort of thing) and I don't think I've ever countered any of the 'experts' listed by Dan B. on that sort of ski analysis (it's their bag after all).

There are technique discussions that don't involve MA.  If somebody asks a "How should I.." question, they're asking about technique/tactics/etc, which falls into categories best-answered by people who know what they're talking about, and gingerly treated by those who don't.  It's important to note that this is always relative.  In some unfortunate crews, I'm the most knowledgeable.  In other, luckier ones, far from it.  How and whether I answer such a question or defer to others depends on the company.

Obviously, when someone starts a thread they are soliciting a widely broadcasted response.  If someone only wants the ideas of any one person, send them a PM. Seems easy enough, right?

Maybe they're interested in the ideas of multiple experienced people.

Now,  thought on 'unassailable' expert hood. I don't believe that Daron Ralves or JP Auclair are regular contributors here.  Those guys are experts...but you know what? if they chose to participate on an Internet forum, I'd engage them directly, too, because dialectic is the real joy and benefit of an open global forum and uniform, one way pontificating is the ultimate dead end.

Dude, I like you, but have you completely lost the plot?  First, it shouldn't require somebody with the credentials of a Daron Rahlves or JP Auclair for you to respectfully listen.  There are plenty of guys way worse than they are and way better than you who deserve respect for their skills.  Dialectic might be the real joy for you, but plenty of others get pissed off by it when it's initiated by a relatively uneducated source, and are only willing to put up with it for so long.  They don't have the time, interest, or energy to engage in dialectic with every unqualified forum poster on the internet.  By continuing to harangue them, you encourage them to stop contributing their time and expertise, and all of us lose.  Would you please think it over from their perspective?