Reverse Camber/Rocker hits Mainstream

[jbotti]

As many of you know I went and bought what I thought was the best reverse camber/ reverse sidecut ski in existence at the time. I bought them without demoing them and in general I am happy with my purchase. I bought the DP Powderworks Lotus 138's in a 192 length. What I own is a great powder ski which is progerssively more fun the deeper it gets. It is also a real bear to ski on hard snow especially because I hate to push out the tails (whioch one really needs to do with reverse/reverse skis). These ski rule on a heli skiing trip, and they rule in the backcountry and that's why I keep them. Still, I don't think they are great in bounds when you need to ski on hard snow to get back to the lift (and many skiers could care less about this).

Now obviously the ski companies have realized this and they have realized that most skiers ski at resorts and that the lack of versatility in Reverse/reverse skis limits the usage and most importantly the sales. So this year we are now seeing Rocker and revrse camber go maintsream, with Volkl, K2 and Rosssignol and Salomon all offering multiple choices of skis with tip and or tail rocker and or zero camber, and or reverse camber, and a few with reverse sidecut. I have been convinced since I bought the 138's that a traditional sidecut ski with medium rocker would be the ticket for inbounds skiing and now there are multiple choices. I encourage everyone to try as many of thses skis this season (on powder days). The least radical looking with only modest rocker and very traditional sidecut and 105mm underfoot is the K2 ObSethed. I was hot for this ski when I first read about it.? I have since set my sights on the Rossignol S7 Cabbalero. This is a medium rockered ski with trad sidecut and 115mm underfoot. The Salomon Czar is similar with med rocker and trad sidecut and 111 underfoot (from memory) but it is not sandwhich construction which rules it out for me. The Volkl Katana is of the same mold.

Others skis with trad sidecult and significant rocker are the Salomon Rocker, The Volkl Kuro and the K2 Hellbent. Reverse/Reverse has several new entries from a variety of companies, Line, Armada, DP, Movement and several that I can't remember.

I know everyone hear loves to ski powder. These skis will be available at resorts all over thiis season. I would like to get as many involved in demoing and posting reviews. I iwll definitely take out the Rossi S7's and the ObSetheds ASAP and I will post reviews.

All of this BTW is bad news for Ron, who after he skies the S7's will quickly sell his Goats and buy a pair!!!

Seriously though, everyone should try some of these skis. The technology advances are significant and the additional fun factor in Pow is huge!!!

[jim-ratliff]

Very interesting topic, John.? I think you may have planted a very interesting demo bug (except I don't know how to ski in powder and never seem to run into any).

However, I think Ron is pretty happy with his Icelantic Shamans, which is more comparable than the Goats.

[jbotti]

It is a very interesting phenomenom and the ski companies hope that it is comparable to the large tennis rackets and the Big Bertha driver in golf. One thing is for sure, these skis make skiing powder obtainable for the chronic internediate skier. Unfortunately they reinforce technique that will not work in powder on trad sidecut, trad camber skis. But the fact that intermediates can have fun at Squaw in 2 feet of sierra cement says alot about this innovation.

For those that can ski, these can be another tool to have in the bag and they will allow almost any skier to stay out longer with less leg wear and tear in powder and chop all day. When you get to skiers at the level of Harald Harb, there is little benefit if any becuse he skis bumped up powder all day and never gets back on his skis and never gets his quads burning. For everyone else, the ability to be able to stay forward without tip dive, is huge!!!

Having said all this, in Montana where I am skiing 80% of the time now, I never use them. The dumps are smaller and the snow is so light. In tahoe however, rocker is definitely changing the game and it is changing most in trees. Rocker skis turn or pivot almost on a dime which makes them amazing in trees and makes tree skiing accessible to much larger numbers of skiers.

Again, I am anxious to try the new hybrid skis with medium rocker and traditional sidecut.

[Ron]

Ahh another ski to love?  I like your style!!!!  OK, I am all for new stuff and new technology but I think the rockers still have a little ways to go. There are some good threads on Epic discussing many of the observations John makes if anyone is interested. Very good user comments on the pro and cons.  I think within the next two seasons they'lll get it right. They SEEM ( i need to demo) to be too powder-centric and not enough "all mountain" application. I want a ski that can go from deep powder to broken and piled and still be agile and effective; like a Goat or similar. Once they get that, I'be "Rockin'- Ron"......

[Gary]

Hmmm...I listen and wonder.

JB....so I take from your post that the greatest benefits in deep snow....2 feet and higher?

Less tiring?

Easier to ski centered?

Easier to pivot off the center of the ski for tree skiing?

Assuming the tree skiing has to have fresh snow for the skis to be worthy?

These skis are bump worthy?

I'm just wondering if this kind of ski is really only purchase worthy if you use them only for big snow days backcountry or lots of tree skiing on good snow days.

Very Curious,
Gary

[Ron]

Jim is correct, the shamans would be a more appropriate comparison as would a Atomic Thug and many of there powder specific traditional camber boards, IMHO the goat is not a powder specific board, the tip is only 134, this is not very wide, the 105 underfoot is much easier to ski on than you may think, in soft snow playing along edges, gs turns and even medium turns, you don't really notice them other than an obvious delay when you really try to rock on edge. quick changes in direction, like along the edges are actually quicker than many narrower skis due to the terrain and snow. THe Shaman for instance is stupid easy and fun. I am looking forward to actually trying them as a mid-fat ski as they are considered to be very good on soft snow and groomers (although i will wait to try to comment, seems like a little stretch). Remember, the Shaman has a 15m TR! http://www.icelanticboards.com/  then go to products and Shaman.

Although rocker and skis like the shaman are easier and less fatuging, the reason why I like them (I know I would like a rocker) is the sensation, its got nothing to do with technique. I love the surfy, easy, floaty feeling. This is something that seems to be misunderstood.

[jbotti]

Gary, yes, they float much better and it is much easier to stay forwrad becuse the tips won't dive. You don't need 2 feet of fresh, but you notice the ease most when the conditions get tougher. In 8 inches of light montana fresh, they do great but it is very easy to ski this on any ski. In 2 feet of sierra cement which is much harder to ski on traditional skis, it is as easy as skiing in Montana. As for bumps, if the snow is soft, they make it easier. You tend to float on top pf the undulations rather than the skis sinking in. In large bumps with fresh crud on top the pivoting ease is useful. I would never call them bump skis, and of course once the snow gets hard, you don't wnat to be on them.

Ron, I think that some of the new medium rocker skis with trad sidecut are finally what you are talking about. I have yet to try them, but from redaing reviews on the Obsethed, it is truly an all mountin powder ski that will handle everything that you will see on a powder day at a resort.

Obviously we all need to demo some of these, but the good news is that the mainstream compnaies are making these now which means demoing will be readily available unlike when I bought my Lotus 138's where there was lliterally no possible chance to demo.

[Ron]

excellent!  Well something new to demo then. there are many partials out this year so we'll pay attention to the reviews and see how it goes.

[Philpug]

Having been in the industry off and on for close to 20 years, I will say that the current reverse camber skis are not ready yet. Everything out there right now is trial and error design, there are 10/20's 20/10's Reverse camber, reverse sidecut and every combination in between. This whole segment is for such a narrow market that really doesn't deserve much investment for R&D because the sales aren't there and the designs aren't "trickle down" technology. Look back into the mid 90's when "shape" skis came out, how many manufacturers rushed poor designed and untested product to the market, we are seeing the same thing here.

I am as much as an early adaptor as anyone but, unless you are getting 10-15+ days of 1'+ of snow, I would rather have a traditional design ski on the 100+ range that I can ski in the rest of the conditions and still enjoy. These skis are still unproven and cannot be said that they are the end all of great skis.

[jim-ratliff]

Phil:

Right on!  I agree whole heartedly.  But what an interesting idea for a demo day if there happens to be a LOT of snow on the ground.

Jim

[jbotti]

Phil I think your comments may be correct for many of the new rocker skis. Having said this, expectations are important. No ski with any kind of rocker or even with zero camber will ever preform well on hard snow as the physics prevent t. I read a review by Dawgcatching of the Salomon Czar where he pretyy much trashed the hard snoiw capabilities of the ski. If you look at the original reverse/reverse skis specifically the Spatulas, they are just terrible on anything hard or packed down. Even the next generation of reverse/reverse skis (like the DP Lotus 138, the Armada ARG and the Praxis Powder) are still rough getting to the lift line. The new generation is trying to prduce a ski that you can ski all day on a pwder day at a resort and have fun with it even when you are on a packed down groomer on the way to the lift. These will always be powder specific skis, but they are trying to find a balance between excellent soft snow flaot and capabilities and acceptable performance on some hard to harder surfaces.

Interestingly, if you ask the real powder hounds at Squaw who ride on reverse/reverse skis on all powder days, they will tell you that the hard snow abaility of these skis is not that bad!!! I find it bordering on dangerous.

Again expectations will have much to do with people's impressions. If someone is looking for a do everything skis, that floats like a buuterfly on the pow and stings like a bee on the groomers, they have set themsleves up for dsiappointment.

If howver, they are like me and looking for a pow specific ski that will give super flaot in deep snow and improved groomer performance to the reverse/reverse skis, then they might start getting as exciited as I am!! 

I do think everyone should demo some of these skis and then decide from there.

[Philpug]

The pluses of these skis do not out weigh the short comings. Like you said, manufacturers are rushing to get these to market, but I see this segment as being a fad. Will they go away completely? No, but in two seasons you will see jsut a handful of manufacturers (mostly little guys) offering them.

[Gary]

Ok...now that we've got that sorted out...

I too would love to try  a pair in appropriate conditions, but ..I will survive if I don't. Now if I lived in Montana...might be better than a moose deterent alarm on your bumper!

Hey J...6 to 8 of us will be at Jackson Hole Jan 18-25th....it would be nice to connect and make some turns. Let us know if your around then.

Best,
Gary

[Ron]

demo yes.....own, next season or two....

gary, a moose alarm? do we strap you to the hood?

[jbotti]

Gary, it looks like I will be in Montana aound the same time. JH is 3:15 away. Sounds like we should get at least a day of turns in together. As we get closer we can figure out some details.