Impressed - real ski boots

[meput]

Moved into some real ski boots about 10 days ago. I had my boot guy (Glen Scannell) try to stiffen up my Nordica Dobie Pro 100's with a plate under the 2 cuff straps and add a 2nd bolt in back. Helped a little. He went out back and found a several year old new old stock pair of Nordica Dobie WC 150's in my size. We had him fit, cant and make new foot beds on March 10. I now have 6 days in them and what a difference. Edge control. Fore aft support. Wore the old boots one day to give my feet a break from the job of packing in the new liners. There is no comparison between the two boots. The only advantage of the old boots are the ease of putting them on (still trying to learn how to put on a real boot). The improvement of ski control and feedback has improved to such a level that it makes up for the aggravation of struggling to put the boots on. Now that the liners are starting to break in, they are getting much more comfortable, feet stay warm and skiing is now even more enjoyable. From what I have already learned and experienced about a race plug boot with some stiffness, I would recommend a real boot (properly fitted) to any serious skier.

[jim-ratliff]

Jim:

What kind of liner?  Maybe I misunderstood the left over part.  Was this a new never used boot that Glenn had in stock?  It sounded almost like it was a shell that someone had used and discarded, and he kept it in case he found a use for it?
 
Factory liner, foam injection, zipfit, other?

[LivingProof]

meput,

Nordica Dobie 150's......as they say in Texas Holdem, you went all in! And from a 100 flex boot...welcome to a REAL boot. Think they are stiff now, wait until next winter trying to get out following a cold Maine ski day. ToddW was telling me some tales about getting out of his new stiff Head boots earlier in the season.

As you are a PMTS student, the focus is tipping not flexing, so, I think you will quickly make the on-snow transition and the stiff flex stops being a noticeable difference. (So say the man who skis a Nordica 130) plus you have a good bootfitter to help.  I'm a Nordica fan, and, if I was in your shoes, er...boots, I just might have done the same purchase.

It's all about how they ski for you and the feedback you get. By all means, keep us informed of your progress. Both Ron and JB are on new, stiffer boots this year and it's been interesting to learn about the longer term transition.

Keep pulling your feet back under your hips

Good long term investment in your skiing. Plus, you get extra credit when you tell us mere mortals "My boots are Dobie 150's!"

I

[jbotti]

I think that once you ski above an intermediate level stiffer boots really help immensely. There is a big trade off between "forgivemness" and performance. The more performance you have in a boot that you can use, the less "forgiveness" you need. What most people that are afraid of stiff boots don't realize is that soft flexxy boots are slow and will not react quickly. And because they won't perform well it is self fulfilling that the skier feels like he needs more "forgiveness". I went from skiing in 130 and 150 flex boots to the dodge boots which are more like 170-180 flex (there is no stiffer boot). Right now I could not ski in anythuing else because they are so quick and so laterally stiff. I really do think it is a fallacy that skiers need a flexxy boot.

As for getting them on and off, it is all about technique. After 20 days in my dodge boots where there is no give in the boot even when it is warm, I can now get it on and off with no pain and no haslse. Again it ls all technique. With plastic boots, it is best to have them warm from a boot dryer or a Hot Gear bag when you put them on. They will separate like buttter if they are nice and warm. The Hot Gear bag is best for this. Taking them off is about technique. Reach down and place your hand on the cuff just below the instep and pull the cuff away. While doing this start to come out of the boot but only come out enough to release the heel. Now with the heel released, extend your leg and put just your heel on the floor so the toes are facing up. Reach down and grab the two side of the lower/inner boot and with some real force start to separate them. As you are doing this, pull your foot out of the boot. If you separate them enough you will avoid the bear claw that attacks the foot. When 150 boots are really cold, it takes immense strength to separate the Lower/inner boot. Most people wait 10-20 minutes indoors to allow the boot to warm up some. A hair dryer will do this in 1-2 minutes. If you get the technique down well, you can even take off 150 flex boots with minimal pain when they are cold.

Hope this helps Meput.

[Gary]

I've found that as my ski skills improved that having a boot with less flex certainly was more immediate in the performance department. BUT I found there was another factor and that was where my Center Mass was mounted at the most optimal position on the ski.

Once I found the perfect location to mount my skis (usually about 1/2 inch to 3/4inch on most skis traditional center points) it was from that position I could get the most effective fore aft response with the least amount of movemnet in the boot.

Depending on your ski skill level, sometimes having a little lag time allows the skis and body parts to stay linked. With the stiffer boot and correct mounting position..."it's beam me up Enterprise" and poof...ubegone!

It's nice with many of the new high performance boots you have the luxery of playing with the spine bolts to stiffen or soften your boots. But I've found having the correct balance point on the ski is a critical part of the puzzle. Best, g

[ToddW]

Jim,

Congrats on the new boots.? With Glenn's tweaks they will ski like magic boots.? Did he have some more Dobie 150s for your daughters?? If not, I'd keep them under lock and key?

I second jbotti's suggestion to get a hotgear bag, especially if you can find a late season deal.

[LivingProof]

Ok, G has tweaked my interest in mounting point again. I continue to ski my Shapes about 1.5 cm forward because I bought them used from Greg Merz who has a larger boot size (one of the few bigger than me). I'd really like like to try them at center. Recently, I checked my Kastle 88's and found out I was ahead of center by 1.5  cm and corrected it via the adjustable Marker Griffon demo's and they ski much more centered as the tail pressure is increased. Plus, via Todd W I've been trying to dial in new canting with the dedicated shims sold for that purpose.

Jim
Are the boot sole lengths the same? If not did you remount or just accept the difference by moving the heel? Not sure what your bindings are or your primary skis.

Mike

[jim-ratliff]

Mike:

It shouldn't be that hard to change the mounting point for bindings on your Super Shapes. They come with a carve plate. The carve plate is mounted to the ski, but the bindings are only mounted to the carve plate. The carve plate had multiple screw holes for the differing boot sole lengths, but you never have to drill new (or fill old) holes in the ski itself?  The screws are self tapping into the metal carve plate.

[ToddW]

Mike,

A quick follow-up on Jim Ratliff's advice.  The carve plate 13 or speed plate 13 on your supershapes is marked with boot sole lengths by each hole as a guide for mounting bindings.  In many cases, this places the marked centerline of the boot sole aft of the the alignment mark on the skis.  If you can still see the alignment mark on the skis, make sure you're happy with how you're lined up before remounting ... even if it moves the toepiece one hole forward of what the stamped numbers indicate.

[meput]

Jim, the Dobie's were new old stock (never used) at Sport Thoma ski shop where Glen runs his boot fitting business out of. They were brand new with stock liners. Original list was $900. Since several years old, red tag sale at $300 (Glen's magic doubled the price - still great value).

JB, Glen has a great technique for removal: unbuckle the boot, loop the top strap posterior to the boot so you can put your other toe into the loop. Push down with your foot in the strap loop while bending your knee and pointing your toes down while pulling your foot out of the boot. Hold on to the liner finger loop or your foot can come right out of the liner. Coming out is much easier than going in with this technique. I do have a hotgear bag, but still working on perfecting the get the boot on technique.

Todd, no the girls are not going to make off with my boots. They only take my skis. Kristin (who you met last season) is already in a Dobie pro 130. Caitlin is in a traditional Nordica 90 flex that Glen was able to cant by putting shims between the sole and the sole plates - works real well. What I do worry about is Kristin taking the hotgear bag - then I would be up a creek without a paddle with the Dobie 150's? .

Mike, both of my Dobie's are mondo 25 with 285 sole length. No binding adjusting for this old f_rt? !!
As for skis, I have a 2 ski quiver: '08/'09 Head SS's and '07/'08 Head monster 78's. Those skis can handle anything eastern skiing can throw at me.

As for skiing ability, I like the term HH gave JB on the Essentials cover: aspiring expert skier. Midwif made some comments about my skiing back a thread or two that got both Jim #1, Lynn and myself into griefdom (how do you like that word? ). I would rate myself as a "good" skier, but definitely note an "expert" - hense aspiring expert skier.

[Gary]

Hey Mike, as you know it's important to be aware of one's sense of balance on your skis. Subtle changes can make huge performance differences.

Dialing in your gear and your most effectve balance point is a great way to advance your ski skills.
Be brave Real Skiers!   

My personal thoughts on titles...expert, shmexpert...aspirin g., interwhatiot.....do es it really matter....have fun ski...ski with buds who enjoy your company, help each other when help is requested and ski...ski...ski.... just one mans opinion!


G

[ToddW]

. I do have a hotgear bag, but still working on perfecting the get the boot on technique.

Jim,  a one-time squirt of silicone spray into the shell will help ease entry until you have perfected your "get the boot on technique."  Hold your breath when you spray, as the stuff's better on boots and bindings than in lungs.  You can get suitable spray designed for bindings and boots at many ski shops or online ( for example, tognar.com )  It's also good for silencing creaking boots in warmer weather.

[meput]

Todd,
Creaking ski boots?!?  I thought that was my old joints making that creaking noise  .
Jim

[HighAngles]

I also made the move to "real" ski boots and I have to admit I don't know why I waited so long.  I think it was mostly a concern about losing the "convenience" of easily being able to put on and take off my boots.  I'm still a bit concerned and it's great to read all these tips on how to handle real boots.  I can't even imagine what it's like to deal with a 150 or a Dodge boot.  My 130s are enough of a challenge for now. 

[meput]

HA,

As Jbotti said, get the Hot Gear bag. This last weekend, turned up the bag to hot (normally I am on the medium setting) for a couple hours before I put the boots on. They went on much better, almost as easily as my Dobie 100's go on.

Have yet to find a problem with the stiff boots. I have heard criticism that stiff boots can throw you around in bumps. As spring conditions are just starting with the bumps that just happen, I am finding bumps are more controllable with the real boots.

Enjoy your new boots,
Jim