Float and Velocity and Equipment Choices

[jim-ratliff]

Mike: You pompous ass.   

By the way, why not start a new thread about "brushed carves" vs "Clendenin's drifting" vs other similar movements, whatever the names might be.  "And skids and maybe skivots fall into this group?

I think I understand some, especially regarding whether the entire ski is displaced sideways or whether only the tail is, because I do both (sometimes intentionally).

[LivingProof]

 If you take Gary's Kastle '78 and add 2 inches (10mm) of early rise on the front, they should still ski the same when on the groomed? Makes sense to me.

OK Jimbo,

I was not going to comment on the above, but, becoming a PA......has me laughing.

Hmm...@ 25.4 mm per inch, 2 inches of rise would be 51mm. I think G would be getting rid of the MX78 sooner than 2 more years.

[jim-ratliff]

No, you misunderstood.  Add 2 inches to the front of the ski at whatever a common degree of early rise would be.  So the ski goes from a 178 to 183.

So I did the math wrong, add 4 inches and make a 188 powder ski while retaining the skiing characteristics of a 178 groomed snow ski.  After all, isn't that sort of where rocker has come.  Initially it was reverse sidecut, really wide underfoot, and lots of rocker; then less rocker and more normal sidecut, and it's continued to morph into blends that provide some (to lots of) edge on groomed while still having the advantages of rocker off-piste (minus the reverse sidecut of the Spatula like skis).
Ski lengths are cm, not mm so 51 mm is only 5cm.

[LivingProof]

Mike: You pompous ass.   

By the way, why not start a new thread about "brushed carves" vs "Clendenin's drifting" vs other similar movements, whatever the names might be.  "And skids and maybe skivots fall into this group?

I'd be safer walking into the NY Giants (football) Stadium wearing my best green Eagles gear, than start that thread!    ...A true no-win situation!

[Gary]

Right on Max....I see what you're saying.

I'm just trying to think of an example of a ski that rewards twisting/pivoting and for me it would be a ski that was way too stiff to flex...I've been on boards like that and no matter what kind of solid skiing principals I applied, it rewarded me with nada....or dumping me on my butt...the demo became more survival skiing, get to the bottom and get those boards off.

I once demoed skis for Ski Press Mag and some very similar expereices on some of the test boards.

Certainly I would concur Dr. if the board is too stiff...it ain't going to co-operate!

[LivingProof]

So...in theory if any ski can be tipped with PMTS movements, then it's on the team?

Not quite...A ski that rewards tipping as the primary movement and has a good flex pattern would be a good way to think about it (given a radius that fits with the type of turns you plan on making with the ski). Or the converse, which is that a ski that rewards twisting/pivoting as the primary movement would not be the best choice for a PMTS skier.

Max,

What is the secret to a "good flex pattern" and how does the average skier figure it out?

Not too many years ago, it was easier as there was the basic Supershape and the IM78, both of which were recommended for just about any level of skier to learn PMTS. Looking in the '12 Head narrow ski line, the Magnum, Speed and Titan don't make the cut, so is it proper to infer that they exhibit a "bad flex pattern" or "less than optimal"? Last year, there was discussion, both here and the PMTS forum, that the KERS i-Supershape's tail could be difficult for a lesser skilled skier. ToddW has posted stating they are fine from his experience.

I remember skiing with Helluvaskier and he was on my case that Blizzard Sl's were not Harald approved, and, he was on his Fisher SL's. It would be very hard to deny that there is PMTS herding mentality to ski officially approved skis.

I have no problem with Harald promoting skis that are well suited for PMTS, including that most are made by a single manufacturer with whom he has an business affiliation relationship. Yeah, I'd like him to be a little more open in stating that relationship exists ( and that applies to many others who perform ski reviews ). It would be unrealistic to expect HH to plug Fisher, Elan and other carvers. I can understand his frustration when wide skis are brought to PMTS camps. Ask any sponsored pro about equipment and they will recommend their sponsor.

I have to state that in my first 2 seasons of learning PMTS, my skis were not approved, but the technique worked great. Did I make a mega-breakthrough on a switch to Supershapes, not really. Have I demo'd carvers that I like as much as SS's, yup!

I believe it's the archer, not the arrow. But I'd never buy a bow I could not bend! (No Volkl's)

[bushwacka]

to be fair I editted the video so that only when he was following was in the video..... plus one of the shots was him following me on my little(177cm 98mm) touring skis.  and yes yellow jacket or POV.

BUshwhacker,

Glad you joined in on this conversation.  Are you in yellow in that video? Who is skiing on the Icelantic Nomads?  That's what I use as my Powder ski (the 181 SFT-same edition as in the video)-which aren't rockered and have 20m turn radius...Just saying, who ever was on them kept pace with you on the Thugs enough to keep you in the video.

Aside from that-I like that video and I think it's instructive...Exper t East coast powder tree skiing benefits from skis that do more than merely respond well to tipping.  You're the missing voice in this conversation.

JBotti,  I am sorry If I have been reading your comments wrong.  My impression was (is) that

1. You feel rockered skis, early rise designs only benefit the extreme edge of big mountain free skiing and low level intermediates who twist every turn.

2. You also imply that Strong intermediates, aspiring experts and actual experts will not progress in their skiing, and in fact see their skills deteriorate (ala the reference to the skiers in the aforementioned K2 video) due to using these sort of skis.

3. That the growing prevalence of such designs is not based on efficacious enhancements of the general public's ski experience, but on  marketing that preys upon the average skier's delusional aspirations to ski like ski **** stars (I believe you referenced Sage Cattabriga), when they ought to be pursuing a far more attainable, carving technical vision of expert skiing, like Harald (In fact, I think that is exactly how you concluded one post).

If I am wrong on any of these assumptions, I apologize, and please tell me and tell me how that's misreading your positions.  If these are your (and Max's I ought to add) positions...well, I strenuously disagree with components of each one. 

And, I will continue to strenuously disagree when such positions are posted on this forum.  Consider me the loyal opposition if you will.  And it's not personal, I, Like everyone who posts on this smaller, focused, intelligent forum am passionate about skiing and I enjoy the give and take discussions AND arguments surrounding the direction of ski technology and technique.

Liam

the deal is I love to tip, I race, I run gates, I love to carve groomers. Heck I wish I was more flexible so I could angulate even further.



I also like to focus on other skills set while skiing tree and like to use skis that let me do what I want, instead of a ski that dictates to me what wants to be done.  If you want to call it brushed or whatever all I have to say is there are skis that make me feel as if I can not skis tree in at stowe. The pair of 173 Shaman was one of them. My 174 8.7 are another one, my SL and GS are some other ones. The same reason why I do not take my cross bike though rock gardens MTBing is the same reason why those skis stay on hard snow. There are days where I literally ski stuff in that video all day long top to bottom, it would be silly of me to skis a ski that would make it harder or any less fun.


also its simple physics bigger skis float more and lower speeds, for you overweight skier out there I reckon the thug has enough float for about 300 lb. I did some testing in the spring




yes I am wedging but I bet you would love to be wedging in that picture as well.

[jbotti]

LP, if you have gone from a wider all mountain ski to the Head SS and you haven't had a breakthrough with your skiing and carving IMO it is one of two things. Either you are already a rocking skier and carver or you have not done the drill work enough and or correctly enough. I can tell you my skiing absolutley soared when I got my SS's (it also soared the season before when I got my ISL chips, a great ski as well). as well as the drills there is no substitute for a great PMTS coach whether it be Harald, Diana or Jay and others.

As for Head skis versus other brands, I can say the same as Max. Head has made some great skis and the SS and the IM 78 are two of the best skis I have ever skied on. We can add the ISL RD, the I Speed and the TT 80 to that list as well. I have skied and owned many Fischer Skis and at one point the Fischer Progressor (original later renamed the 9+) was one of my favorite skis. But for the last ten years in front side and 80mm and under all mountain skis, the Head offerings have been better than Fishers and Elans by a good margin in my opinion. I think this is the main reason that Harald skis Head. He loves the skis. It's the same reaosn I own a lot of Head skis, as they rock.

I will say that they have yet to come out with a Powder ski that I would buy or own and they have not had a competitive offering here in years. I think it's obvious what they do well and it isn't wide boards.

[LivingProof]

LP, if you have gone from a wider all mountain ski to the Head SS and you haven't had a breakthrough with your skiing and carving IMO it is one of two things. Either you are already a rocking skier and carver or you have not done the drill work enough and or correctly enough. I can tell you my skiing absolutley soared when I got my SS's (it also soared the season before when I got my ISL chips, a great ski as well). as well as the drills there is no substitute for a great PMTS coach whether it be Harald, Diana or Jay and others.

JB,

You, I and the world knows I am not a rocking skier, therefore the Rx for more and better drills applies. And, yes, there is no substitute for great coaching, self-teaching lacks effective feedback, video has limitations. I've had this continuing dilemma about attending a camp and I've opted to use my western trips to skis new places with friends, old and new. No doubt in my mine the experience of a camp, both on and off snow is great, many have told me it's so much more than the skiing. This season I'll be at the Epic Gathering in Tahoe 2/27 - 3/3. If you are in SF during that period, I hope we can finally link up.

The ski I started PMTS was a little wider than the Magnum and breakthrough's were immediate just due to tipping movements and flexing. The first PMTS proponent that I ever met was Gary, now 4 seasons ago, at Jackson Hole. He wore a PMTS.org patch on his jacket, skied with one arm in a sling, and we had some great discussions.

I've always enjoyed your posts regarding the various breakthrough's you have experienced. They remind me of the story of Archimedes running naked through Greece shouting "Eureka, I've found it". I will use your thoughts as motivation to find similar breakthroughs on the SS's. Perhaps, I expected too much from the SS's as they are hyped in the forum. But as stated previously, I am much more about the archer than the arrow, and, I am the limiting factor.

[jbotti]

LP, I would love to finally ski with you. I am around for part of the Epic gathering. Having said that I think I may be persona non grata with some of that group. I sense that part of the reason that Phil and Ron have left this site is because of me. I have treid hard to avoid the religous battle on this site and its's clear that this is not the place for it. My view remains that skiing with people that love skiing is great even if we have differing views on how to improve and what equipment to use.

Having said all that assuminng you are fine with it I will look to come up to Tahoe for a day and ski with you and the Epic crowd. Let me know some specifics as this gets closer.

As for the drills and coaching, I can tell you that finding a way to work drills in to your everyday skiing makes all the difference. If you feel like you are doing drills and not skiing what you want to ski or with whom you want to ski, it can be a drag. But if you find spots along the way on runs where you do a drill or two and you do this consitently over the course of the day it's both fun and rewarding.

On coaching, there just is no subsutute for great coaching!!

[Liam]

Ron and Phil  Left This site?

[LivingProof]

@ Liam
In a private conversation, Ron told me that he does not intend to post here as it's a small community. Phil and I talk frequently, so, I'll ask, but he has not posted recently. I don't believe he has issues with Real Skiers, it's just small and he has added Epic & Start Haus responsibilities.

@JB
We have all tweaked Ron at one time or another, you are not alone. Recently on Epic, he blasted me for following "Napoleon". Perhaps he will find peace with this year's new fat ski.

As far as "persona non grata", at last years Gathering, there were many PMTS proponents and there were no issues what-so-ever (at least that I'm aware of). I had a lot of great discussions with those who did not have the details of what PMTS is all about. One interesting mini-seminar that just occurred on the mountain was between Geoffda and Mark (Uncle Louie) where they described the basic differences between PMTS flexing/tipping and PSIA unweighting. The group knows good skiing, you would be welcome.

[jbotti]

LP, great!! I look forward to it.

[Gary]

Hey Gang....just wanted to express my thoughts regarding Ron not being on site.

I don't think it's the size of the site, I think it's more about the things he'd rather and rather not be talking about. I speak with him almost everyday. The talk is about cool ski videos, great and not so great skis's he's tried during the season and life in general. His passion for skiing deep snow and tight trees is limitless. His attitiude with ski skills is "bring what ya got and let's go make some turns".

He like us has a great passion for skiing but elects to keep it simple and "just go ski"!

I too miss his banter and "fashion sense" but understand and respect his choice.

Me on the other hand....I need to know and try it all...like most here.

Best, G

[HighAngles]

@LP - Uncle Louie on Epic is Greg, not Mark. 

Interesting that JB cross posted this thread starter on the PMTS forum.  Should be interesting to see how it progresses over there.  Last season's rocker threads were deleted usually.